PST E8 Tanks

[Atlaua]

I've been looking at these recently.

What's the scoop on these? Sounds like they are taking a standard LP steel tank and saying it's ok to overfill them to 3500PSI. I.E. the E8 119 is the same as the E7 95...

Are these tanks better or the same thing with an offical factory overfill statement?

James

[Mverick]

They have a little different neck profile.



But, there are rumors going around that PST is going under. At least the scuba division. And, Faber and Worthington have now come out with the 8in tanks at 3443psi. PST has an exemption to fill the tanks to 3443. If they go under it will be very hard to get the tanks hydro'd. More likely you won't be able to.



Good tanks. But Way overpriced now... And not a lot of them out there.. I'm using Faber 108's and Faber 121's mostly now.



http://www.techdivinglimited.com

Has a really great sale on them now....

[theskull]

I've been looking at these recently.

What's the scoop on these? Sounds like they are taking a standard LP steel tank and saying it's ok to overfill them to 3500PSI. I.E. the E8 119 is the same as the E7 95...

Are these tanks better or the same thing with an offical factory overfill statement?

James

E8 119 is the same tank as the LP 95, with a very slight difference in the metal proportionment. E7 series is what used to be called HP tanks, smaller diameter and much more negatively buoyant. The E tanks have a special exemption from DOT that allows the "legal" overfills. If PST goes out of business or fails to renew the special exemption with DOT the tanks will essentially become worthless, as it will be illegal to fill or transport them. Latest reports are that PST will stay in business, but they have not yet completed their move or secured the additional financing they need, so it is not a sure thing.

The LP tanks will still be OK, since they did not have a special exemption. Since Faber and Worthington are both coming out with their own E series tanks, the smart money is either buying LP steels now or waiting for the Fabers (painted) and Worthingtons (galvanized) to become available.

Because of all this, there are some great sales on the LP steel tanks right now, and those of us affiliated with a LDS have no trouble getting the "overfills" anyway.

theskull

[MgicTwnger]

Because of all this, there are some great sales on the LP steel tanks right now, and those of us affiliated with a LDS have no trouble getting the "overfills" anyway.

theskull

Mverick turned me on to a very good deal on LP 121's this week: $211 + shipping.

And if I p*** and moan enough, my LDS will usually give me an overfill. Depends who is working.

[StSomewhere]

But, there are rumors going around that PST is going under. At least the scuba division. And, Faber and Worthington have now come out with the 8in tanks at 3443psi. I think there is a lot of sock puppetry going on around with the PST rumors, who knows it could even be coming from people that may have a stake in the Faber and Worthington versions?

[Mverick]

Well,
I know they have financing problems. I know they have other problems. Without a doubt. Will they pull through? I hope so. Am I going to buy a cylinder for $350 that might be junk if they don't? Ummm, No...

And Ken knows me well enough to know I don't have anything to do with sales. I've been trying to find him a set of 121's since we went to Enterprise the last time. Do I work for a shop. Yep. It's closing next month. They didn't sell any gear I use either.. I recomend based on knowledge. Not what my shop sells.


I hear a lot of complaining about FABERS from the PST crowd also. Yet, people I dive with. Here included, don't see any rust on my Painted Fabers.. By the way, I have LP PST 98's also. Plus a set of there 85's lp's. I own a lot of tanks. Have what I want for the needed dive.

I don't care who makes the tank. $350 for them is high. When I can get LP fabers for $250 any day. I don't normally dive in Salt Water. And if you take care of your gear. It won't rust anyway.

And yea. I know people are probably blowing smoke into the PST shutting down thing. But, it is real. They have problems. And it is real that if they shut down. There tanks are worthless unless you fill your own and take your own risks. But then. Want to fill your own tank without a hydro for 10years.



I think there is a lot of sock puppetry going on around with the PST rumors, who knows it could even be coming from people that may have a stake in the Faber and Worthington versions?

[Atlaua]

Do I work for a shop. Yep. It's closing next month.

We're loosing another shop? :(

Which one?

[StSomewhere]

Whatever, I don't have a dog in this fight. But the timing and innuendo (mostly on SB where this all started) smell fishy to me, that's all.

[Mverick]

Action One Dive. In Edwardsville, IL.



We're loosing another shop? :(

Which one?

[MgicTwnger]

And Ken knows me well enough to know I don't have anything to do with sales.
Yeah, Rick steered me to a shop in that hotbed of diving activity, Arizona! Go figure.
However, the way he tells it, he could sell ice to Eskimos if the Eskimos were female.:cool:

[Mverick]

Yeah, Rick steered me to a shop in that hotbed of diving activity, Arizona! Go figure.
However, the way he tells it, he could sell ice to Eskimos if the Eskimos were female.:cool:

Me likes the Females.... LOL

[reefraff]

Whatever, I don't have a dog in this fight. But the timing and innuendo (mostly on SB where this all started) smell fishy to me, that's all.Whatever "timing" issues you're concerned about would seem to start with Pressed Steel - they're the ones that filed the notice with the State of Wisconsin announcing their intention to permanently lay off 37 of their (fewer than) 50 employees. I don't see Scubabored having anything to do with this, other than being where you first heard about it - don't shoot them for that.

Read it and weep:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9307791/

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/09/12/story4.html (registration required)

I certainly hope they survive this but there is cause for concern - not that there is much any of us can contribute to the situation beyond nattering and being prepared.

[Atlaua]

What does PST's continued existance have to do with wether or not you can get it hydro'd?

[reefraff]

What does PST's continued existance have to do with wether or not you can get it hydro'd?Hydro facilities are under the thumb of the DOT, just like the manufacturers are.

The tanks were manufactured under an exemption granted by the DOT. Every few years, until Uncle Sam is satisfied that the tanks are okay, the exemption expires. Per DOT, if the exemption isn't renewed, the tanks can't be recertified by a hydro test facility. It's my understanding that only PST (or their successors) can renew the exemption.

[StSomewhere]

Nevermind, I should've known better. I'm out.

[Atlaua]

The tanks were manufactured under an exemption granted by the DOT. Every few years, until Uncle Sam is satisfied that the tanks are okay, the exemption expires. Per DOT, if the exemption isn't renewed, the tanks can't be recertified by a hydro test facility. It's my understanding that only PST (or their successors) can renew the exemption.

Again help me out here.

Is the "exemption" you are referring to the ability to fill them to 3400 PSI? I.E. should PST fold, you would only be able to get a hydro that alloed a 2400 PSI fill? Or would you not be able to get a hydro at all?

I know full well how LP steals are overfilled regularly. I would be ok with someone not being able to put the "official" stamp on a product, but not with not having a hydro at all.

James

[theskull]

Again help me out here.

Is the "exemption" you are referring to the ability to fill them to 3400 PSI? I.E. should PST fold, you would only be able to get a hydro that alloed a 2400 PSI fill? Or would you not be able to get a hydro at all?

I know full well how LP steals are overfilled regularly. I would be ok with someone not being able to put the "official" stamp on a product, but not with not having a hydro at all.

James

If the exemption is allowed to expire, the tanks become illegal. Illegal to fill (to any pressure), illegal to transport, and illegal to hydro. The exemption is not for the "overfill" pressure, it is for the tank's existence.

Fair? Hell no!
Law? Yep.

Sorry,
theskull

[Atlaua]

Fair? Hell no!
Law? Yep.


Clear? As a bell.

Which is what I'm looking for. So I can't take the tank to the dump after PST expires? :)

[theskull]

Clear? As a bell.

Which is what I'm looking for. So I can't take the tank to the dump after PST expires? :)

No problem. Just take it empty. You're not transporting a pressure cylinder if it is not pressurized.

Even better, make wind chimes from it. But empty the Nitrox before hitting it with the blow torch.

theskull

[Atlaua]

But empty the Nitrox before hitting it with the blow torch.

theskull

Spoilsport....

[Atlaua]

Actually this reminds me of my days as a pilot. A certain propeller manufacturer had some issues with a specific model of their props. Unlike the automotive industry where such a thing would be fixed in a recall, all of the planes affected had to have their props inspected regularly and/or replaced....at the owner's expense.

[reefraff]

Again help me out here.

Is the "exemption" you are referring to the ability to fill them to 3400 PSI? I.E. should PST fold, you would only be able to get a hydro that alloed a 2400 PSI fill? Or would you not be able to get a hydro at all?

I know full well how LP steals are overfilled regularly. I would be ok with someone not being able to put the "official" stamp on a product, but not with not having a hydro at all.

James
Is the "exemption" you are referring to the ability to fill them to 3400 PSI?
No. You're thinking of the overfill rating, a separate beast that applies to some low pressure steel tanks and is evidenced by a "+" sign that will appear next to the RIN facility date stamp. If present, it allows the tank to be filled to 110% of the rated pressure, as stamped on the shoulder of the tank. Thus, a PST LP tank rated at 2400 psi with a current "+" stamp can be filled to 2640 psi.

I.E. should PST fold, you would only be able to get a hydro that alloed a 2400 PSI fill? Or would you not be able to get a hydro at all?
No hydro at all - the RIN facility is supposed to destroy the tank on sight.

In the beginning....:D

From the DOT (http://hazmat.dot.gov/exempapp/approvals/exsys.htm) website:

The Office of Hazardous Materials Exemptions and Approvals (OHMEA) has the primary responsibility for the issuance of DOT Exemptions and Approvals to the Hazardous Materials Regulations (HMR). An Exemption or Approval is a document which authorizes a person to perform a function that is not currently authorized under the authority of the HMR. Also, in many instances, the Regulations require approvals and/or registrations prior to transportation in commerce. The main difference between an exemption and an approval is the fact that an approval document can only be issued if there is a specific approval cite in the Regulations i.e., approved by the Associate Administrator for Hazardous Materials Safety. If there is no approval cite, one must apply for an exemption.

Whew. In layman's terms, a tank must either meet an existing standard or apply for an exemption. An existing standard doesn't expire and the tank will be stamped accordingly (DOT 3AL and DOT 3AA are common in the scuba world) and can be requalified by an authorized hydrostatic facility. A company that receives an exemption for a tank (DOT E9791 and DOT E8965 are the ones we're getting all sweaty about) must extend that exemption every few years and no authorized hyrdo shop will test it if that exemption hasn't been extended.

If all goes well, after a few years the exemption will become a standard and then the tank will be stamped with a new DOT number. Some of you may have seen some old aluminum tanks that have the 3AL in a funny place above the other characters and some other numbers X'd out - that's how it works. If things don't go well - say the tanks develop a tendency to blow up unexpectedly or the company that received the exemption goes out of business, the exemption expires and the sky falls.

Pressed Steel currently has two exemptions in effect: 9791, which expires January 31, 2006, and; 8965, which expires March 31, 2006. If either of those exemptions is allowed to expire, any tanks stamped with those numbers should, technically, be removed from service. The rules don't really apply to scuba shops unless you're transporting the cylinders but not filling them and not visually issuing visual inspection certificates is certainly a reasonable precaution. For hydro facilities, it means destroy them.

Hopefully I've helped and not just stirred the silt...

[Atlaua]

Thanks, Steve.

I'm aware of the difference between a + raring and a normal fill pressure, but I was unaware of the fact that these tanks have a "special" rating. One would think that if PST wanted to sell to the wary consumer they would have put the "standard" LP rating on the tanks...

James

[reefraff]

September 19, 2005
DOT Exemption Extension Approved for 2 Years

PST-Scuba is pleased to announce that the Department of Transportation (DOT) has extended the Company’s DOT-E Exemption 9791 through August 2007.

Although not scheduled for renewal until early 2006, PST’s exemption was officially approved on September 16, 2005 and will be valid for a standard two-year period. The Exemption allows for the manufacture, sale and use of PST’s popular E-Series steel diving cylinders in the U.S.A.

http://www.pstscuba.com/cgi-bin/nlcurrent.cgi

[theskull]

DOT Exemption Extension Approved for 2 Years

This is excellent news! I have many dive buddies who will be rejoicing.

theskull