Are you a Dive Professional?

[juls64]

OK, so we get creeped out going to "the other board". As I stated on another thread, I do like the Instructor to Instructor forum there. I just wondered if we had enough people here to start something like that.

The reason I like it is that we can talk about training/teaching issues and it doesn't turn into a flame war about agencies. Everyone seems to respect the fact that we all want to do a good job of training divers and deep down, we all face many of the same issues and it has nothing to do with agency and everything to do with desire to do the best job we can.

Are we ready for this kind of forum yet, or would it be a little too exclusionary at this point?

Julie

PS- For those not familiar, the I2I forum is for Dive Professionals (Divemasters, Dive Cons, Assistant Instructors, Instructors) so they can talk about training issues. It is not accessible to non-professionals. An example of why it is useful, if I wanted to discuss a problem with how a student was having a problem doing a fin pivot, and mentioned it on an open forum, I would get 100 responses about why PADI sucks. I do not write the standards (or always have to agree with them), but I do need to adhere to them. I find the closed forum format keeps things on a more mature level.

[theskull]

I may be naive, but I think we could openly discuss such things on this board without excluding the non-pros. You might even get a good suggestion from a new diver about what suggestion helped them overcome a dive skill difficulty.

theskull

[Atlaua]

Well since you brougt it up. I've been throwing around the I2I thing. My version is called "Professional Divers: because I2I is a misnomer. SB includes DM's in I2I so why use a title that eliminates two PADI levels?

Anyway, as I said I've created the forum and the group but I stopped there to mull it over. Mainly because I'm not sure we are big enough yet. But you make a good point.

Should we have an "open" pro forum, a pro forum that is open to all, or one that anyone can read but only pro's can write to?

James

[DeepDiverBob]

I am fine either way. For me personally, I find myself asking more questions on here than providing answers. Why limit it to any certain level? Why not just have a Q&A forum?

[Atlaua]

Why limit it to any certain level? Why not just have a Q&A forum?

Nothing says we couldn't have both...

[tobad78]

It is not accessible to non-professionals. An example of why it is useful, if I wanted to discuss a problem with how a student was having a problem doing a fin pivot, and mentioned it on an open forum, I would get 100 responses about why PADI sucks. I do not write the standards (or always have to agree with them), but I do need to adhere to them. I find the closed forum format keeps things on a more mature level.

Another thing to keep the little guy out :p . I don't agree and wonder why your comparing scubaboard to midwestdive in this regard. I've yet to see any post here get 100 responses or even close.

I could be mistaken but I've not seen ANY flames here attacking a specific agency. I would rather the mods either close the thread or just delete any post atttacking any agency with willfull disregard along with warning the member.

I'm here to learn and share knowledge. I have No idea what a fin pivot even is.

So if you did make this post private I wouldn't learn anything.

[theskull]

Another thing to keep the little guy out :p . I don't agree and wonder why your comparing scubaboard to midwestdive in this regard. I've yet to see any post here get 100 responses or even close.

I could be mistaken but I've not seen ANY flames here attacking a specific agency. I would rather the mods either close the thread or just delete any post atttacking any agency with willfull disregard along with warning the member.

I'm here to learn and share knowledge. I have No idea what a fin pivot even is.

So if you did make this post private I wouldn't learn anything.

I am in agreement.

And a fin pivot is like a ballerina spinning on one toe, but using a fin as the pivot point. Very difficult maneuver, especially while wearing doubles. ;)

theskull

[juls64]

Another thing to keep the little guy out :p . I don't agree and wonder why your comparing scubaboard to midwestdive in this regard. I've yet to see any post here get 100 responses or even close.


I am not comparing the two, I was just explaining how it is set up there, and why it is set up that way. That is one of the very few reasons I go to that board at all anymore, because of that one forum. If it were not a closed forum, over there, I am sure it would quickly lose its value to me.

Sorry for the confusion!

[scubado]

I haven't looked at the other link (the professional one) in order to get creeped out. Where is it located? I don't mind having an open link to all but at times it may not be a bad idea to have a place where we can discuss things amongst professionals. At times I'm a little leary of providing advice and/or recommendations to non-professionals as it could increase liability exposure if someone misconstrues what is being said and then does something stupid.

[scubatim2004]

I as a non pro diver see both points but would enjoy such a fourm open to all divers. I have only been diving a little bit over year, have 41 logged dives, was AOW Certified a few weeks ago also have done and passed my First Responder class with flying colors and am now working on the book portion for Rescue Diver. I plan on starting my Divemaster work after that and then just maybe contuniue on to Assistant Instructor etc..

I think such a fourm would be benificial to all who may want to go PRO.

Just my own 02psi worth thank you

[steve2281]

Am I a dive professional??? Nope. Never will be. No desire (too busy divin). I guess I'll just read the other forums.

[MgicTwnger]

I2I is fine, but let everyone read it since those allowed to post there should be the best trained and most experienced among us.
On the other hand, I've met a lot of excellent, experienced divers who don't have a wallet full of C cards. And a lot with full wallets who don't know their gluteus maximus from their elbows.

[juls64]

I2I is fine, but let everyone read it since those allowed to post there should be the best trained and most experienced among us.
On the other hand, I've met a lot of excellent, experienced divers who don't have a wallet full of C cards. And a lot with full wallets who don't know their gluteus maximus from their elbows.


Ken-

I am about to go through the IDC. I am finishing AI now. I want to go on and finish, because as a divemaster, I have seen many students that need a little more help, and I very much enjoy working with them. I can help them. I know I can make them more comfortable, more confident and in the end, assist them in becoming better divers.

Am I the most experienced, not at this point. The people teaching me reserve that spot. Best trained, well yes, among the best. That is why I have continued taking classes with the instructors I have had. I believe they are the best.

I also realize as a new instructor, I won't know everything. That is why I like I2I. We don't know everything, but can go there and ask and not have people accuse us of having too many cards, or anything else. I don't believe that being an instructor makes me an expert but I am a firm believer that intelligence is measured in one's ability to learn, and I love to learn!

I am sorry if anyone was offended because I asked about a Dive Professional forum. I never said it had to be closed or otherwise, I only stated how it was set up elsewhere and wondered if we had anyone that may be interested. I don't think we are ready for it here.

Julie

[MgicTwnger]

Julie,


I'm not disagreeing with you. We all realize, or should, that training is vital to our sport. However there are many good divers who have no desire to be an instructor, DM, etc. Speaking for myself, I take courses that interest me and pertain to the type of diving I want to do: wreck, deep, and so forth. I want to be able to read any I2I forum to increase my knowledge. IMHO the best thing about SB is being able to pick the brains of divers more knowledgeable and experienced than me.

Ken

[Atlaua]

So the real basic question here is....

Is there a place on this forum for pro's to discuss things outside of non-pro ears. I.E. How would you handle this student situation? or How does your shop handle this?

Comments?

James

[juls64]

I don't think so, at this time.

Maybe down the road, though!

It seems if we had an open forum, it would be OK though.

Julie

[Atlaua]

It seems if we had an open forum, it would be OK though.


Juls,

Can you elaborate? We have a pretty open forum here, not as open as rec.scuba, but more open than some other alternatives. What do you mean by "if we had an open forum"?

James

[juls64]

My whole problem is one that I think you understand. I am just a divemaster, about to complete AI. I am LEARNING, as I will be for quite some time. Forever in fact. But from time to time situations arise and it is nice to consult others who are in the same boat. Also, from a liability standpoint, we have to follow standards. Well none of us are infallable, and if something is done wrong or I have a problem, I may not feel comfortable telling the whole story to everyone on the board. I might like to consult only DM's, AI's, Instructors, others who are in the same boat, who know what the standards are and can offer advise. Also, because of liabilty reasons, I would be hesitate to post certain things for all to see.

I will give some examples I just looked at on SB.

- Someone is asking about teaching with weightbelt vs weight integrated. I am weight integrated but have thought of throwing a couple pounds on a belt during classes. While reading the responses, the opinions of those in that situation have more value IMO, but this could be an open forum question since liabilty is not an issue.

- Someone noticed the way CESA's were being conducted by another instructor and questioned it. This could definitely violate standards and have liability repercussions. I don't know if this person would post this in an open forum or not.

If I were to ask for help because a student had trouble doing a no-mask swim, I could post anywhere. Anyone could have had this problem themself and could offer a solution. If it is anything to do with standards however, I may not feel like telling it to all, because of the liability reasons.

From the responses recieved on this thread, we had extremely few from those who would be considered "Dive Professionals" and many from those who aren't but didn't like the idea. From those responses, I made an opinion that perhaps we are not ready for this at this time.

I hope I explained that OK!

Julie

[nauifins73]

I can see where you are coming from & have understood since the beginning. I am not a Dive Professional (yet) and not sure I will be, BUT I don't understand the problem with having a forum for those who are.

I think it is a great idea especially for new Instrs. to have a place to talk about situtations that they have had come up with seasoned Instrs.

Just my 2 cents

[juls64]

I can see where you are coming from & have understood since the beginning. I am not a Dive Professional (yet) and not sure I will be, BUT I don't understand the problem with having a forum for those who are.

I think you are! You teach don't you?


I think it is a great idea especially for new Instrs. to have a place to talk about situtations that they have had come up with seasoned Instrs.

Just my 2 cents

Becky-

Thanks for the support!

Julie

[reefraff]

Well since you brougt it up. I've been throwing around the I2I thing. My version is called "Professional Divers: because I2I is a misnomer. SB includes DM's in I2I so why use a title that eliminates two PADI levels?

Anyway, as I said I've created the forum and the group but I stopped there to mull it over. Mainly because I'm not sure we are big enough yet. But you make a good point.

Should we have an "open" pro forum, a pro forum that is open to all, or one that anyone can read but only pro's can write to?

JamesI like the idea of a forum where dive pro's can discuss things without interjections from the rest of the world but I also like the idea of a place where the rest of the world can ask questions and get answers. Maybe this board is small enough to start out with just a caveat - non-professionals can start a thread by asking a question but only pro's are "allowed" to answer? Just kicking some cans around...

[juls64]

I like the idea of a forum where dive pro's can discuss things without interjections from the rest of the world but I also like the idea of a place where the rest of the world can ask questions and get answers. Maybe this board is small enough to start out with just a caveat - non-professionals can start a thread by asking a question but only pro's are "allowed" to answer? Just kicking some cans around...

That is a good idea. A great place to start!

J.

[MgicTwnger]

One difficulty I see here is defining "pro". There are all levels of experience and expertice among "pros" and non-pros.

[steve2281]

I just don't get it. I've been semi-quietly watching this thread for a while. I just don't understand. What's the use of having an area that certain members can't read or post. I check this board everyday and read every posting. I would like to see more postings, more members, and more interaction. Have ya'll pros got some kind of special info the rest of us don't need to know?? Seems like even an OW diver with four dives under his belt could benefit from reading a conversation between instructors; he might even want to contribute to the conversation by giving a students' view of the topic. I mean, for professionals, it's all about the students, isn't it??? MHO.

Plus, if the forum was closed, us non-pro's might get our feelings hurt by thinking the pros are privately making fun of us for wearing our snorkels on the wrong side. Which side do I put my snorkel on???

[juls64]

One difficulty I see here is defining "pro". There are all levels of experience and expertice among "pros" and non-pros.

Pro in this case is one that needs professional LIABILITY insurance.

[juls64]

I just don't get it. I've been semi-quietly watching this thread for a while. I just don't understand. What's the use of having an area that certain members can't read or post. I check this board everyday and read every posting. I would like to see more postings, more members, and more interaction. Have ya'll pros got some kind of special info the rest of us don't need to know?? Seems like even an OW diver with four dives under his belt could benefit from reading a conversation between instructors; he might even want to contribute to the conversation by giving a students' view of the topic. I mean, for professionals, it's all about the students, isn't it??? MHO.

Plus, if the forum was closed, us non-pro's might get our feelings hurt by thinking the pros are privately making fun of us for wearing our snorkels on the wrong side. Which side do I put my snorkel on???

Steve-

This is part of a prior post that pretty much explained it:

If I were to ask for help because a student had trouble doing a no-mask swim, I could post anywhere. Anyone could have had this problem themself and could offer a solution.

If it is anything to do with standards however, I may not feel like telling it to all, because of the LIABILITY reasons.

None of it has anything to do with excluding anyone or keeping secrets. It all has to do with this. When you start to teach or divemaster or whatever with student divers. When you get in a postion that you need LIABILITY insurance, you have to COVER YOUR ASS. You want to do a good job and continue to learn. We are all human though and we don't know every answer and occasionally we may make a mistake or need some help or want to ask a question. Because of our worries about LIABILITY, we want to be very careful about where we ask these questions, seek advise, or share our mistakes. I work with a lot of good, experienced people, but it is a great big world out there and I am always looking for new ideas. It is nice to have other avenues to pursue for advice or to compare ideas.

Julie

[steve2281]

Steve-

This is part of a prior post that pretty much explained it:

If I were to ask for help because a student had trouble doing a no-mask swim, I could post anywhere. Anyone could have had this problem themself and could offer a solution.

If it is anything to do with standards however, I may not feel like telling it to all, because of the LIABILITY reasons.

None of it has anything to do with excluding anyone or keeping secrets. It all has to do with this. When you start to teach or divemaster or whatever with student divers. When you get in a postion that you need LIABILITY insurance, you have to COVER YOUR ASS. You want to do a good job and continue to learn. We are all human though and we don't know every answer and occasionally we may make a mistake or need some help or want to ask a question. Because of our worries about LIABILITY, we want to be very careful about where we ask these questions, seek advise, or share our mistakes. I work with a lot of good, experienced people, but it is a great big world out there and I am always looking for new ideas. It is nice to have other avenues to pursue for advice or to compare ideas.

Julie

This isn't really a reply to your post; I'm going off into left field just a bit, but it is related:

I think non-pros need to be aware of how big the issues of liability & libility ins are. If a diver considering a DM class understood the magnitude of the issue, they might reconsider taking the class. It seems as though some divers take the professional route because they think it is the only path to continuing their dive education. Are they taking the class out of a desire to "teach," or were they nudged in that direction by their local shop who was trying to fill the next DM class. Does a shop here in Poduck KY really need 20 instructors, 15 DM's, and another half a dozen in training? Did all these professionals understand the liability-related issues before going pro? Did they understand they might not make enough money DMing to pay their liability ins. If they had access to information, such as might be found in the professional forum, they might have a better understanding of the professional/liability issues.

[juls64]

This isn't really a reply to your post; I'm going off into left field just a bit, but it is related:

I think non-pros need to be aware of how big the issues of liability & libility ins are. If a diver considering a DM class understood the magnitude of the issue, they might reconsider taking the class. It seems as though some divers take the professional route because they think it is the only path to continuing their dive education. Are they taking the class out of a desire to "teach," or were they nudged in that direction by their local shop who was trying to fill the next DM class. Does a shop here in Poduck KY really need 20 instructors, 15 DM's, and another half a dozen in training? Did all these professionals understand the liability-related issues before going pro? Did they understand they might not make enough money DMing to pay their liability ins. If they had access to information, such as might be found in the professional forum, they might have a better understanding of the professional/liability issues.

Steve-

To clarify something, you don't need liability insurance simply to take the divemaster class and hold the divemaster card. It is great to take it simply to increase your knowledge. You only need the insurance when you work as a divemaster.

Julie

[theskull]

I vote to leave this one to SCUBABoard for now. I understand the non-pros not wanting to be left out of interesting skill-based discussions. For the other type discussions regarding standards, how to penalize/charge students who refuse to show on time for sessions or miss them, and how to cover our butts from the lawyer-happy accident prone--right now we have a fairly small community of pros. Therefore, it might be best to either direct these questions/comments to the vast member base of SB or to send PM or Email to the midwest pros you wish to consult on a one-on-one basis.

And do indeed please post the skill & training-based questions here for all to see and comment on. I for one had no idea that flooding a mask could be a terrifying event for a great number of new students until I read it en masse on SB, and got chastised myself for earlier suggesting that these must be folks who don't belong underwater!

theskull

[DeepDiverBob]

Because different shops and different agencies, and really, different instructors handle certain situations differently, I honestly belive as a "pro", if you have any questions about standards, policies or are looking for advice, why not talk to the other pros as the shop that you work? I bet I am asking questions about equipment, PADI standards or seeking advice every time I walk in the shop. Besides, if worst case scenerio happens, and I wind up in court, I would rather be able to say I did what I did because that was the direction I was given by by shop, instead of that was the suggestion I was given by scubastud_1111-785 on an Internet message board.

[juls64]

Because different shops and different agencies, and really, different instructors handle certain situations differently, I honestly belive as a "pro", if you have any questions about standards, policies or are looking for advice, why not talk to the other pros as the shop that you work? I bet I am asking questions about equipment, PADI standards or seeking advice every time I walk in the shop. Besides, if worst case scenerio happens, and I wind up in court, I would rather be able to say I did what I did because that was the direction I was given by by shop, instead of that was the suggestion I was given by scubastud_1111-785 on an Internet message board.

I kind of view it as preventive maintenance. By reading about issues other people are having and solutions they are finding, I may be better prepared to deal with them up front. I don't use that forum as "the final word and answer" simply as another resource.

J.

[Atlaua]

Ok, I have finally come to a decision about this.

As I have mentioned I'd already created a forum before Juls suggestion and had stalled on actually rolling it out.

It appears to me that there is no way to please everyone on this so I'm going for piss everyone off equally ;)

Instead of 1 forum I have created 3 forums.

The first is called Professional Divers. This forum is open to all. I encourage all users to participate and the subject of the forum is any professional diving topic.

The second two are subforums of Professional Divers.

Ask the Pros is open to anyone to ask a question of professional divers. Once a thread is started, only the original poster and pro's can reply to the topic, however anyone can read the replies. If you have a question you want to ask of DM's/Instructors that you don't want to be allowed to degenerate or be flooded, ask it here.

Private Discussions is only available to professional divers. This is for topics that you feel are too sensitive to be discussed openly. I encourage all of our pros to place any discussions in the open unless they feel that doing so could either have a negative impact on divers or cause trouble in some other fashion.

The "pro" status can be gained by requesting to join the "Professional Diver" group. To do so, follow this link:
http://www.midwestdive.com/forums/profile.php?do=joingroup&usergroupid=15.

In the reason field please include your level, agency and professional cert number.

Another topic of discussion is comercial/public safety divers. These are clearly "professional" divers, however in a different sense. For now if we have any commercial divers who wish to join the group, please PM me. I do not belive we have enough right now to create a commercial/public safety group so I will probably lump them together. However if I see differently we could open up a commercial section sooner than expected. By my count we have 1 of each at the moment so it would be kind of a boring forum...

James

P.S. As a side note, the VB permissions structure is rather complicated. If anyone sees that the new forums do not work as advertised, please PM me. Taking advantage of "bugs" is a TOS violation.

[theskull]

I'm pissed off at this decision. But equally so. So I think I'm pissed but also pleased at the same time. I find this oddly disturbing, yet refreshing.

Ah, the Yin and Yang of SCUBA!

theskull

[Atlaua]

Heh, after all the bantering over such a simple thing as a new forum, I'm ok with that ;)

[nauifins73]

I think it is a great answer to a surprisingly tough issue.

[DeepDiverBob]

I agree with what Bill said, but just the opposite, what hes pissed off about, I'm pleasantly pleased about, and what he is carefree about, I find internally alarming, but in a sane kind of way.

[Atlaua]

I agree with what Bill said, but just the opposite, what hes pissed off about, I'm pleasantly pleased about, and what he is carefree about, I find internally alarming, but in a sane kind of way.


Oh, come on now Bob... has anyone every really accused you of being sane?

[DeepDiverBob]

well, there was that one person who...wait...nevermind, I was narked.


Or was it even me?

[tom725]

Juls, I have been lurking here for awhile. Shame on you for even considering the possibility of sharing. Next thing you will want to share the secret handshake and the PADI decoder ring. We need to keep these things quite or everyone will want them.

[SLIM]

What is considered a PRO? Is it one who is a instructor, DM, Comercial diver, or a person that has been diving for a very long time?SLIM

[juls64]

Usually an Instructor, DM, etc. A position that required liability insurance.


:2617:

[Atlaua]

Usually an Instructor, DM, etc. A position that required liability insurance.


Or a commercial diver...