Rgerets

[Tabasco1955]

I have a question for those of you that have entered the instructor ranks. I am a Master Diver now and considering going on up into the Instructor ranks but I have concerns about the liability issues, and also the issue of turning my hobby into a job, any of you care to comment on your experiences in these areas?

Mike

[Atlaua]

Well I'm not an instructor, just a DM, but I plan to become an AI and possibly an instructor this summer.

IMHO, the liability issue is a big one, not only legally but morally as well. Many of the shops out there do minimum standards training. If you wind up teaching with one of these shops, you'll likey have to conform.

As far as turning your hobby into a job, well that depends on how active you become. If you work every weekend it's likely to happen, if you work once a month it probably won't.

James

[ozarkjim]

Like James I am not yet an instructor but should be by the end of May. I do have some inisghts that may help you. My instructor through DM is independent of a dive shop and teaches club members for cost +$20.00 (10 for him and 10 for our club). I and the other DM's charge nothing. We are all insured and are doing this because we love to dive and love to help others learn. Of course,this only is an option with an agency that allows independent instructors. It's definetely not a job if you pick who you train and don't get paid for it.
I'm not saying I will never be affiliated with a store just not at this point in my life.

[Atlaua]

Ok, you may notice this thread is a little shorter :D. I prefer less moderation but it seems that most of our active members like the friendly atmostphere we have here. Let's try to keep it that way :D.

James

[M&P+4]

Thank you!

[kent_1848]

...Of course,this only is an option with an agency that allows independent instructors...What agencies will allow this? NAUI does if I heard correctly, are their any others?

[terrapinken]

Sorry folks.......My temper got the best of me. I love you Scubagod...Peace be with you. Kenny

[ozarkjim]

We are with PADI. I know SSI doesn't allow independents but don't know others who do.


Sorry that I started something with the earlier P.S. I normally just grimace and go on.

[terrapinken]

Mike,

From personal experience of turning my hobby into a job: I went to an extreme and opened a dive shop. For me, it just gets better and better everyday. All days are good....some are better than others. I love to share my passion for diving with others and the dive shop is the means to the end. We run a student/customer focused operation and re-invest all profits back into the shop. I would suggest you go through the entry level professional training and then decide if advancement is for you The training can be very rewarding, but you are never required to teach/divemaster if you choose not to. Please feel free to contact me personally if you have any other questions. Ken Elliott - Midwest Scuba www.mwscuba.com (http://www.mwscuba.com)

[Tabasco1955]

Thanks to all of you for your input, apparently I brought up a touchy topic, sorry if I put any of you at odds with one another. I have been teetering on the edge between Master Diver, and moving on into the ranks of entry level instructor for some time now, my better half thinks it would be a good retirement income supplement and of course she knows how much I love diving, we are even considering migrating down South once we are able to retire. Me on the other hand, I have been there and done that with turning a hobby into work which took away from the enjoyment of the hobby and therefore have a great fear of that happening with my diving which I definitely don't want to happen, hence, the request for input from those of you that have crossed over into the instructor ranks. I've also heard the story of an instructor doing a recreational dive with a buddy (no training or certification involved at all with this dive) and his buddy drowned while on the dive, then there was a big issue of, was the "certified Instructor" liable in any way, shape, or form for the death of his buddy, I don't know any more details than that but that also has been weighing pretty heavily on me. Based on this last issue, once you have entered the entry level Instructor ranks, are you liable for others you are diving with in any way, even if no training is involved in the dive? I know, this sounds stupid and the obvious answer is "no" but I have heard of stranger things!

Mike

[Atlaua]

Thanks to all of you for your input, apparently I brought up a touchy topic, sorry if I put any of you at odds with one another.

It's not a touchy subject at all. You were just a victim of circumstances. Dive shop politics (which might be something else you consider :D) here in STL are the root of the matter. To paraphrase, an instructor and a customer of one of the local shops decided to open their own shop. Let's just say there is some animosity on the part of the original shop owner and is attempting to use this board to promote an agenda.

Personally at one time or another both of these shops have been my LDS so I'm fairly familiar with the in's and outs. I want MidwestDive to remain shop independant and don't want it to be a place for "shop wars" so I decided it was better to clean up the whole mess.


My better half thinks it would be a good retirement income supplement and of course she knows how much I love diving, we are even considering migrating down South once we are able to retire.

I don't know about "good". If you move to a destination such as South Florida or the Carribean then you could probably bring in enough to put a small dent in the retirement load. People do make a living instructing in areas such as this, but not necissarly a good one :D.


Me on the other hand, I have been there and done that with turning a hobby into work which took away from the enjoyment of the hobby and therefore have a great fear of that happening with my diving which I definitely don't want to happen, hence, the request for input from those of you that have crossed over into the instructor ranks.

As Ken said, you only have to work as much as YOU commit to. You would need to find your own happy place between hobby and work.

I've also heard the story of an instructor doing a recreational dive with a buddy (no training or certification involved at all with this dive) and his buddy drowned while on the dive, then there was a big issue of, was the "certified Instructor" liable in any way, shape, or form for the death of his buddy, I don't know any more details than that but that also has been weighing pretty heavily on me. Based on this last issue, once you have entered the entry level Instructor ranks, are you liable for others you are diving with in any way, even if no training is involved in the dive? I know, this sounds stupid and the obvious answer is "no" but I have heard of stranger things!

My understanding is that, yes you can be held liable, but it is not likely. Basicly, if there is a suit involved in such a case then the lawyers will want to tack on anyone they can. As a buddy you would probably get tacked on anyway, but as an instructor you would be even more likely to be tacked on. Usually one of the first actions a judge takes in prelims to to weed out the addons and that is that. If some negligence on your part was considered to be a factor in the incident then, budy or instructor you could be liable. While it shouldn't if you are not acting as an instructor, the definition of negligence could move around a bit because of the rating.

Still, I personally know of no cases where an instructor who was not acting as an instructor at the time was successfully sued, which doesn't mean they don't exist. In most cases, active instructors are required to cary professional liability insurance, which is prudent and should take away the fears.

James

[Tabasco1955]

Thanks James, you (and all the others) certainly helped with a lot of my concerns, now I guess the last thing is for me to decide in my own mind if that's is what I "want" to do. I definitely love diving and would enjoy sharing that with others.
Does PADI allow dive instructors to operate independantly? As Ozarkjim said, I know SSI doesn't and that is who I hold my "Master Diver" certification with, I only hold an "Open Water" certification with PADI so I would basically have to start over with PADI to get back to where I am with SSI unless it would somehow transfer over which I don't think it will.

[Atlaua]

Does PADI allow dive instructors to operate independantly?

Yes.


As Ozarkjim said, I know SSI doesn't and that is who I hold my "Master Diver" certification with, I only hold an "Open Water" certification with PADI so I would basically have to start over with PADI to get back to where I am with SSI unless it would somehow transfer over which I don't think it will.

The PADI DM program, which is the entry level professional ranking (not to be confused with "Master Diver" which is not a professional ranking) requires the following to enter the program (more dives are required to complete it):


PADI Advanced Open Water Diver or qualifying certification from another training organization
PADI Rescue Diver certification or qualifying certification from another training organization.
Medical clearance signed by a physician
20 logged dives
18 years old
For advanced PADI lists "SSI Advance Open Water Diver, & Specialty course" as a qualifying certification and for rescue they list "SSI Stress Rescue Techniques or Master Diver" so you should be ok.

[nauifins73]

One thing to think about is with SSI your Dive Con (Dive Control Specialist) is the same as a Dive Master & Assistant Instr for other agencies. But again the draw back is you have to be connected to a Dive Shop, Resort, Live aboard.

Becky

[Atlaua]

One thing to think about is with SSI your Dive Con (Dive Control Specialist) is the same as a Dive Master & Assistant Instr for other agencies. But again the draw back is you have to be connected to a Dive Shop, Resort, Live aboard.

I'm not sure of the details involving SSI's afilliation rules, but another option you can consider is to be an independant operator that is affiliated with a shop. My LDS had an arrangment with an instructor whereby the instructor taught classes indpendantly but was able to use the shop's resources for things like class space, pool time, etc.

I'm not sure what the financial arangments were for this but if you prefer to stay SSI this might be a posibility. Of course you mentioned that one of your goals was supplemental retirement income. Because of their name branding, being a PADI instructor will probably afford you more opportunities than other agencies.

Other agencies to consider are:

NAUI
YMCA (I think you may be required to teach in association with a Y facility, though I'm not sure)
SDI

All 5 of these orginizations have good names in the US diving industry.

James

[ozarkjim]

[QUOTE=Atlaua]I'm not sure of the details involving SSI's afilliation rules, but another option you can consider is to be an independant operator that is affiliated with a shop. My LDS had an arrangment with an instructor whereby the instructor taught classes indpendantly but was able to use the shop's resources for things like class space, pool time, etc.


We have the same offer from Scuba Sports in Branson. We haven't actually worked with them yet because of the drive, but very well might from time to time. They make very little on a cert anyway as we all know and are willing to offer the facilities and equipment to get new divers in the store to look at their gear.

[Tabasco1955]

This certainly sheds a lot of light on the matter since I wasn't aware that PADI would recognized my certification with SSI. This will enable me to continue my certification training with PADI which will be an advantage since SSI will not allow independant instruction as Becky mentioned, and also because of the name branding which James mentioned. I guess the next thing I need to do is contact PADI and see about getting that certification transferred over! Thanks again to all of you that have helped enlighten me!

[Atlaua]

Actually, you don't transfer your certificates. They are just acceptable to satisfy the prerequsites of the PADI DM course.

[Tabasco1955]

Well, I called PADI and talked to them about how my certifications would transfer over (or how I would get credit for them) and the person I tralked to did nothing more than totally confuse me, but then I didn't have much time to devote to the issue at the time so I decided I would just call back when I actually had time to sit down and go over it in detail.

[Atlaua]

Probably easier to go visit a PADI shop. I know there is Scuba Adventure in Jeff City, not sure about others.

[theskull]

. . . I've also heard the story of an instructor doing a recreational dive with a buddy (no training or certification involved at all with this dive) and his buddy drowned while on the dive, then there was a big issue of, was the "certified Instructor" liable in any way, shape, or form for the death of his buddy, I don't know any more details than that but that also has been weighing pretty heavily on me. Based on this last issue, once you have entered the entry level Instructor ranks, are you liable for others you are diving with in any way, even if no training is involved in the dive? I know, this sounds stupid and the obvious answer is "no" but I have heard of stranger things!

Mike

Mike,

This can and does happen. Is it right? Hell, no. But people can sue anyone they want to. When a fatality occurs, the diver who took the risks and trusted his buddies to only do their best is no longer here to speak for himself. Who is here is his family, and they want money, revenge, universal justice. They believe, and lawyers and juries may agree, that an instructor is a highly trained technician who can and will prevent accidents and save the butt of anyone who does anything stupid while in the water. And the lawyers know that the instructors carry liability insurance, which is where the money is that they want.

Will they win a lawsuit? Almost never unless blatant lack of judgment can be shown. But that doesn't mean you won't go through hell while the suit is being handled. And it also doesn't mean that it won't be eventually settled out of court for a huge sum of money because who knows what a jury will do if it does go to court. Fortunately, the insurance pays and the agency defends you. That will not compensate you for the lost time and despair.

This is all true as well for a Divemaster, and it has not swayed me from enjoying my pursuit. I do pay for the highest level of liability coverage offered by the insurance company just in case. I hope it will not prevent you from following your desires, but you do deserve to know the score.

theskull