Cave or Deep first

[skdvr]

OK, as to not stomp on another thread I thought I would ask the question in here.

Right now I am just an average open water diver. I have about 90 dives and have been diving for 2.5 years. I want to get into the technical side of diving.

My first reason for wanting to get into technical diving is because I wanted to be able to see more of wrecks down deeper up in The Great Lakes. Instead of only being able to see something in 100ft of water for a few min, and not even being able to see anything much deeper than that.

Another reason is that I am always hungry for more. I am the type of person that like to know ALOT about things that I participate in. I love to learn new things, and try new things.

Now that I have been reading more about cave diving that has me really interested. Plus a friend of mine has just started down that road.

Obviously both take lots of time, training, and money to get to just the beginer levels. That is completely fine with me because I want things like this to take time to make sure that I actually know what the heck I am doing. so now to my question... Being here in Mo what is you OPINION about which direction to start with?

Now in my very limited view this is how my mind is pointing at the moment. I am thinking that the local caves would be more accessible more often. Meaning that they are closer and much easier to make a day trip out of than a weekend trip. What I do not know about them is how often they are diveable. Meaning vis, flow, and what ever else can make then un-diveable. Eventually if I should enjoy cave diving (which I think that I would) I would need training for decompression diving and eventually into Trimix. I would also think that the training associated with cave would translate well into wreck as far as overhead environment.

All that being said I do not know the 1st thing about cave diving and progession of training. All I know is that you get Caven first then Intro to cave (I think) after that I would assume Cave, but I really have no idea what each step actually means. What it qualifies you to do. I know that just like any other tec training (well any training for that mater) after class you want to find locals that do what you are wanting to do and try to do a bunch of dives with them to continue the learning process.

So what do you guys think? From your expierence did you start going one direction and wished that you had started with another? Again keep in mind that I am in Missouri and not living on the banks of Lake Michigan.

Thanks
Phil

[SLIM]

This is mainly a new thread for SKdvr and all thoses that jump in.

I persanally as a Tec Instructer like to see divers who are thinking about going to Wreck and Cave look at differant ways to get there.

The way I like to see divers go that have not gotten any tec training at all start with a ADV EANx, this way they learn some about doubles, and deco, then take a Cavern/Basic Cave. They then learn more about overhead and gives them a tad leg up with already being in doubles and then go to Full cave, doubels and they already have a leared some deco and a stage from the ADV EANx, then you gt to add another stage/Deco bottle depending on the dive profile and they even get to hone their skills from al that to overhead skills that they will use in WRECK. They get to see a great inprovment in skills learned and a slow way to perfect the skills so as not try to slam it all in a week long class and worry.

I have taught the week long class but perfer to break it up and give thoes time to work on skills learned before they take the next step. It also helps give a chance to get needed gear and see what they wil need. I have several students (many on here) that are no longer students but I am the mentor and they will you that they are constantly learning on each dive with me or with anyone.

Rember, once you cross over to this kind of diving, you learn to decrease the chance of a DCI but you also increas the chance of one.

Then like DDB said, the caves are closer and cheaper to dive in the long run. The skills you learn in Cave are easy to transfer over to Wreck.

Just think of it as each class is a stepping stone to get tot he next level. Just take 1 or maybe 2 steps at a time and don't try to skip one bye leaping. Shoot ask Bubba and Skull, how long it took them to get where they are at. Not as fast as you might think. Thye just kept at it and took some chances on trips to learn even more on them. I bet once the training class was over with, they truly started to learn about cave diving.

SLIM

[SLIM]

LOL I just started a new thread in Trainging for you.

It starts to cover some of what you are talking about. I know that I can easy keep going but it will give you omre nad more questions. I will wiat until a few others have chimed in.

SLIM

[skdvr]

Thanks SLIM... It looks like we were starting new threads at the same time...

Phil

[brettbyers]

I was thinking the same way as Slim, a combination of the two would work best for you. A little at a time working your way back farther and deeper into the cave to coincide with your tech classes.

[ppo2_diver]

I think people should start out with an Intro to Tech of Fundies type class that will focus on mastery of fundamental diving skills. I read somewhere that 90% of recreational divers do NOT have the attitude, judgment, knowledge, and skills to be successful in technical diving. If someone wants to pursue technical diving (wreck, deep, cave, whatever), then they should have a higher understanding of what mastery of the fundamental skills. This way, when they do get into a tech class (AN/DP, cave, etc.), they can focus on learning those new skills and not have to think/worry about trim, buoyancy control, etc.

Just my 2 psi...

Duane

[DeepDiverBob]

I have been accused many times of being a little too hard core, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

My first observation is that you have 90 dives in almost 3 years. thats an average of about 35 dives a year, give or take a few. I am going to take a wild guess and say some of them was probably on a tropics vacation somewhere. My first bit of advice would be to get out and dive locally more. I know with gas prices being what they are, and work schedules, that is a lot easier said than done. I have had to cut back quite a bit this year myself. However, in my opinion, there needs to be a level of dedication given to tech diving, and you need to keep your skills sharp.

For example, I was suppose to go to RBD this past weekend with the rest of the clan. But I haven't been in the water in almost 7 weeks due to illness and surgery. I probably could have worked my way through the illness part of it, but I thought it wasn't a good idea to go 145 feet down on trimix in a cave when it had been so long since I had been in the water.

Back to the thread: My next set of advice would be to get with someone you trust, whether it be an instructor or dive buddy that dives tech, and dive with them in doubles. If available, I highly recommend a trip to the pool for your first time in doubles. Have them show you how to set up the gear, route your hoses and do valve shut downs. I think these are all skills that need to be known before diving doubles. I have dove with people that dive doubles just for extra air, and have their long hose wrapped around their neck 2 or 3 times to keep it out of the way. I've seen long hose coming off the left post.

I am not that familiar with the IANTD tech classes (yet), but I know in the DSAT Deep level 1, they pretty much take you all the very basic steps I just mentioned. I learned all of those from theskull, and probably logged close to 125 dives in doubles before I moved on to Cave class, and then another 2 years of diving before I started on DSAT Deep. There is no substitute for experience.

[skdvr]

Below is just copied and pasted from the thread that I started the same time that SLIM was starting this one. I am going to shoot a PM to a MOD and ask them to delete my thread...

Phil

OK, as to not stomp on another thread I thought I would ask the question in here.

Right now I am just an average open water diver. I have about 90 dives and have been diving for 2.5 years. I want to get into the technical side of diving.

My first reason for wanting to get into technical diving is because I wanted to be able to see more of wrecks down deeper up in The Great Lakes. Instead of only being able to see something in 100ft of water for a few min, and not even being able to see anything much deeper than that.

Another reason is that I am always hungry for more. I am the type of person that like to know ALOT about things that I participate in. I love to learn new things, and try new things.

Now that I have been reading more about cave diving that has me really interested. Plus a friend of mine has just started down that road.

Obviously both take lots of time, training, and money to get to just the beginer levels. That is completely fine with me because I want things like this to take time to make sure that I actually know what the heck I am doing. so now to my question... Being here in Mo what is you OPINION about which direction to start with?

Now in my very limited view this is how my mind is pointing at the moment. I am thinking that the local caves would be more accessible more often. Meaning that they are closer and much easier to make a day trip out of than a weekend trip. What I do not know about them is how often they are diveable. Meaning vis, flow, and what ever else can make then un-diveable. Eventually if I should enjoy cave diving (which I think that I would) I would need training for decompression diving and eventually into Trimix. I would also think that the training associated with cave would translate well into wreck as far as overhead environment.

All that being said I do not know the 1st thing about cave diving and progession of training. All I know is that you get Caven first then Intro to cave (I think) after that I would assume Cave, but I really have no idea what each step actually means. What it qualifies you to do. I know that just like any other tec training (well any training for that mater) after class you want to find locals that do what you are wanting to do and try to do a bunch of dives with them to continue the learning process.

So what do you guys think? From your expierence did you start going one direction and wished that you had started with another? Again keep in mind that I am in Missouri and not living on the banks of Lake Michigan.

Thanks
Phil

[DeepDiverBob]

I have merged both threads. I didnt want to delete anything anyone else had written.

[skdvr]

I have been accused many times of being a little too hard core, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

My first observation is that you have 90 dives in almost 3 years. thats an average of about 35 dives a year, give or take a few. I am going to take a wild guess and say some of them was probably on a tropics vacation somewhere. My first bit of advice would be to get out and dive locally more. I know with gas prices being what they are, and work schedules, that is a lot easier said than done. I have had to cut back quite a bit this year myself. However, in my opinion, there needs to be a level of dedication given to tech diving, and you need to keep your skills sharp.

For example, I was suppose to go to RBD this past weekend with the rest of the clan. But I haven't been in the water in almost 7 weeks due to illness and surgery. I probably could have worked my way through the illness part of it, but I thought it wasn't a good idea to go 145 feet down on trimix in a cave when it had been so long since I had been in the water.

Back to the thread: My next set of advice would be to get with someone you trust, whether it be an instructor or dive buddy that dives tech, and dive with them in doubles. If available, I highly recommend a trip to the pool for your first time in doubles. Have them show you how to set up the gear, route your hoses and do valve shut downs. I think these are all skills that need to be known before diving doubles. I have dove with people that dive doubles just for extra air, and have their long hose wrapped around their neck 2 or 3 times to keep it out of the way. I've seen long hose coming off the left post.

I am not that familiar with the IANTD tech classes (yet), but I know in the DSAT Deep level 1, they pretty much take you all the very basic steps I just mentioned. I learned all of those from theskull, and probably logged close to 125 dives in doubles before I moved on to Cave class, and then another 2 years of diving before I started on DSAT Deep. There is no substitute for experience.


Thanks DDB. just to clarify some of my experiences a little. I started diving in Jamaica on my honeymoon is Feb of 06. I did I think 5 or 6 dives there and then all the rest have been here in the midwest. Mostly TRL (Parents have a house there), Mermet, The Dive Stop, and local ponds. I enjoy diving even in anything I can get into... I made a weekend trip up to Milwaukee a few months back for some wreck diving and really got bitten by the bug. I have a set of HP 120's doubled up that I have somewhere around 30 dives on. Even when I am diving out at The Dive Stop I am wearing my doubles just to get them to be second nature (I get some funny looks out there with them). I had a few people help me out when I first got into my doubles. TheSkull helpd me out with soem hose routing issues that I did not think about. I had everything correct as far as what post the hoses were routed from, but he pointed out to me that it would be best to have all the hoses coming off one side of the reg and then pointed out of the way so it makes getting to your manifold much easier. I try to do valve drills on everydive I do. I am working very hard to do these within a foot or two while hovering. I have gotten much better with this but still not where I would like to be. I am definately a work in progress. I have much different goals then a lot of folks that I have dove with. Most are happy just to be breathing underwater. I get some funny looks and questions from people when I tell them that after our dive at The Dive Stop I want to do at least a 3 min safety stop. They cannot figure out why when we are only going to 30ft. When I tell them because I want more practice hovering I contiue to get strange looks.

I also understand that it is a huge commitment when going into tech. It is not something that you can do once or twice a year.

When I was into skydiving it was the same way. The equipment that I was using was way to advanced for me to use anymore because I did not have time to do 5 - 10 jumps a weekend. After a year of sitting in my closet I decided to sell it all so that I did not get to urge to jump again someday and try to use that gear. Could I go and jump out of a plane and be perfectly safe right now. Sure I could but not at the level I was a few years ago and certainly not with that equipment.

I look forward to diving with a few of you guys at some point and trying to get me more straightned out, and headed into the right direction. I really like diving with people that know what in the heck they are doing. It gives me a chance to see how things are done and to have someone be able to pick out things that I am doing wrong and offer suggestions to fix it....

I have lots to learn and I know that. Feed Me....

Thanks again..

Phil

[skdvr]

I think people should start out with an Intro to Tech of Fundies type class that will focus on mastery of fundamental diving skills. I read somewhere that 90% of recreational divers do NOT have the attitude, judgment, knowledge, and skills to be successful in technical diving. If someone wants to pursue technical diving (wreck, deep, cave, whatever), then they should have a higher understanding of what mastery of the fundamental skills. This way, when they do get into a tech class (AN/DP, cave, etc.), they can focus on learning those new skills and not have to think/worry about trim, buoyancy control, etc.

Just my 2 psi...

Duane

Duane, I was actually looking at your site the other day and really thinking about taking your Into class... I have heard lots of good things about it and from what I read on your site you seem to be the type of instructor that I would like - STRICK. No wishy washy stuff the student is either spot on or dead wrong. It has amazed me in some of the Rec courses that I have taken that some people are allowed to pass.

Phil

[DeepDiverBob]

I sent you PM with people I know locally that could help you with tech classes as well. I think the biggest thing to look at when choosing a tech instructor, or really, any instructor, is do they actually do the kind of diving they teach? There is no point in taking a cave class from someone who hasn't set fin in a cave in 10 years. Or Deep Tech class from someone who 6 months earlier put on a set of doubles for the first time.

PS - This was not intended as a shot at PPo2 diver. He seems to be a very active tech diver, and also been doing it for a long time. He does not fit the negative profiles I listed above. This was also not intended to drive business away from him. He would be a very good choice as well.

[skdvr]

[quote=DeepDiverBob;19330]I sent you PM with people I know locally that could help you with tech classes as well. I think the biggest thing to look at when choosing a tech instructor, or really, any instructor, is do they actually do the kind of diving they teach? There is no point in taking a cave class from someone who hasn't set fin in a cave in 10 years. Or Deep class from someone who 6 months earlier put on a set of doubles for the first time.
quote]

That is what I do not want... Or I mean that is what I want.... Well I Do not want to take a course from someone that just teaches out of a book, and when I ask why something is the way that it is I hate the answer "Because the book says so!". Each course I have taken I have always warned the instructor that I will ask "Why?" a lot. It is not meant to be condescending in any way shape or form. I just like to know as much as I can about what I am doing... Just as a small example I took a gas blender course and I do not mix my own gases, nor do I work for a dive shop. I just wanted to know the ins and outs of mixing and cleaning gear for 02. I wanted to know why things are cleaned the way that they are. Not just dropping off my gear at the counted and saying I will pick it up next week. Just my personality I guess... I am sure that there are lots of good instructors out there, just as there are lots of ones that just want the cash. I do not want to buy a c-card, I want to earn it... I am more than willing to take the criticisms of good divers to help me move up twards that level....

Phil

[SLIM]

It does sound as you are getting in the right mind set and prepairing for the lovley challange of the trainging.

Just got out of the water with a (hopfully prepective student) that wanted me to dive with them and give them some ideas about what to be prepaired for in a ADVEANx class. We sat down and a long chat about the cost of the class and how that books cost extra and doing passing the written test is not a guarante to pas the class. After the dives, I gave him some points to work on before he takes the class. THis way he is better perpaired for what is expected from him.

It does sound like you are trying to go about this the correct way. Just remember slow is smooth and smooth is fast. The slower you go, the smoother you will look and the smoother you look the faster everything falls into place.

I have turned down more students after doing little dives like I did today, I have let them know that they are no where near ready, they were not listening to me and thought they had enough dives and KNEW how to dive. Keep your mind open and listen to what several on here have said and wil say.

More then welcomed to come down and do the same.

Each Tec Instructor has their own little quirks for differant kinds of classes.

Each student slicks with differant instrutors. I can say this, the ones I know on this board are not going to let you off easy. For we are in it not for money, (ROLMAO) but we enjoy seeing a new student and proud to have our name on his card. If you hang with Skull, you can't go wrong. Or bubba, even DDB, just like he said, I have done dives with him and been down deep with him. But if he is not ready he will let you know. There are days I wish more would say that instead of geting down and they have a problem and come to find out even though they have been trained for that kind of a dive, it has been along time since they have done any tec diving.

SLIM

[ppo2_diver]

I sent you PM with people I know locally that could help you with tech classes as well. I think the biggest thing to look at when choosing a tech instructor, or really, any instructor, is do they actually do the kind of diving they teach? There is no point in taking a cave class from someone who hasn't set fin in a cave in 10 years. Or Deep class from someone who 6 months earlier put on a set of doubles for the first time.

PS - This was not intended as a shot at PPo2 diver. He seems to be a very active tech diver, and also been doing it for a long time. He does not fit the negative profiles I listed above. This was also not intended to drive business away from him. He would be a very good choice as well.

Thanks Bob. I'll retrack the post about your breast implant surgery. :)

I agree with most of what Bob was saying. Finding an instructor who does the dives is important. But I feel the biggest thing about selecting a tech instructor is to what level of mastery you'll be held accountable for. Regardless of which tech instructor someone chooses, they really must talk to the potential tech instructor and find out what level of performance they will be held to. Get specific, quantifiable data from the potential tech instructor. I don't think my classes are too strict, but I hold my students to a higher level of performance before issuing a c-card. Like SLIM said, it's my name on the c-card and I want to be proud of the work I put into my students, especially at the tech level.

Good luck with your search and you have a bunch of people on here willing to help you out.

[SLIM]

[quote=ppo2_diver;19334].

. I don't think my classes are too strict, but I hold my students to a higher level of performance before issuing a c-card. Like SLIM said, it's my name on the c-card and I want to be proud of the work I put into my students, especially at the tech level.quote]


So true there, I can say this. In the Rec field, who cares whos name is on the card. When you get into the Tec world of diving and many times you will be asked to show yoru cert level, and it is a small world. We might not know the Tec instructer persaonaly or ever met them, but we have met some of their students and seen what they have produced. This goes a long way. I might not be well known up in the northern states but you go to others and many have never met me, but they know who I am and that if you have my name on your card, it was earned.

Oh just a point, I am starting to give a new class, how to get your fins on with least amount of effort.( inside joke).

SLIM

[skdvr]

Just remember slow is smooth and smooth is fast. The slower you go, the smoother you will look and the smoother you look the faster everything falls into place.

SLIM

Funny you should say that. I was going to put that in one of my earlier posts because that was a saying I picked up while skydiving. One of my first instructors use to say that to me all the time, and I used it with my students. And as you say I have also applied it to scuba. In my opinion it is a mind set for doing most things that works very well....

Thanks again to everyone for all the great responses so far...

Phil

[theskull]

To address the title question, in my highly biased opinion, and assuming you ultimately wish to learn both:

Cave first (*a disclaimer later). I am taking nothing away from Wreck and Deep Deco divers or their training, as they assume some additional risks over cave divers and and must deal with additional hazards by being offshore and dealing with boats, weather, lift bags, etc. However, by necessity and environmental concern, Cave divers and Cave Instructors are much more focused on technique, polished performance, propulsion techniques, precision buoyancy control, and correct trim. If you first become an accomplished cave diver, you will have a most excellent foundation upon which to learn the additional skills of wreck and deep deco diving. And, I have never been refused an opportunity to dive wrecks or deep open water sites when giving my Cave Card as a credential, but just try to dive any monitored cave with ANY card other than a Cave Card!

Now for the disclaimer. As SLIM pointed out earlier, getting the cert card means that you convinced the instructor that you probably won't kill yourself while doing dives of the type you are getting certified for. But, you really learn to perform the skills and pursue the art after you are certified by doing many additional dives with your instructor and/or other accomplished divers, and doing so regularly to build the habits. Recognizing that, you may want to start with the style of diving that appeals to you most or that is most accessible to you. If I lived on the Great Lakes or the Northeast Coast, far away from the caves, I very well might take advantage of that proximity to pursue deep wrecks first, and then pick up the additional polish and skills to cave dive later. As it is, I live a short drive from some beautiful underwater caves that are free or very inexpensive to dive, and a long haul with charter fees and hotel expenses from any wrecks.

theskull

[skdvr]

To address the title question, in my highly biased opinion, and assuming you ultimately wish to learn both:

Cave first (*a disclaimer later). I am taking nothing away from Wreck and Deep Deco divers or their training, as they assume some additional risks over cave divers and and must deal with additional hazards by being offshore and dealing with boats, weather, lift bags, etc. However, by necessity and environmental concern, Cave divers and Cave Instructors are much more focused on technique, polished performance, propulsion techniques, precision buoyancy control, and correct trim. If you first become an accomplished cave diver, you will have a most excellent foundation upon which to learn the additional skills of wreck and deep deco diving. And, I have never been refused an opportunity to dive wrecks or deep open water sites when giving my Cave Card as a credential, but just try to dive any monitored cave with ANY card other than a Cave Card!

Now for the disclaimer. As SLIM pointed out earlier, getting the cert card means that you convinced the instructor that you probably won't kill yourself while doing dives of the type you are getting certified for. But, you really learn to perform the skills and pursue the art after you are certified by doing many additional dives with your instructor and/or other accomplished divers, and doing so regularly to build the habits. Recognizing that, you may want to start with the style of diving that appeals to you most or that is most accessible to you. If I lived on the Great Lakes or the Northeast Coast, far away from the caves, I very well might take advantage of that proximity to pursue deep wrecks first, and then pick up the additional polish and skills to cave dive later. As it is, I live a short drive from some beautiful underwater caves that are free or very inexpensive to dive, and a long haul with charter fees and hotel expenses from any wrecks.

theskull

I was kind of thinking along the same lines... That IF I get certified for cave first I would probably have much more opportunity to do those types of dives. Granted just like anything as time goes by and experience is gained I will want to go further and further into the cave which would mean Deco and eventually Trimix. Do any of the cave specific classes get into Deco or Trimix further down the line or when you get to that point do you just take the Deco Procedures course then later take a trimix course which by default allows you to extend your time and penetration into the cave?

Thanks
Phil

[theskull]

I was kind of thinking along the same lines... That IF I get certified for cave first I would probably have much more opportunity to do those types of dives. Granted just like anything as time goes by and experience is gained I will want to go further and further into the cave which would mean Deco and eventually Trimix. Do any of the cave specific classes get into Deco or Trimix further down the line or when you get to that point do you just take the Deco Procedures course then later take a trimix course which by default allows you to extend your time and penetration into the cave?

Thanks
Phil

Adv EANx Deco Procedures is sort of an Intro to Tech course that covers high PP Nitrox, minor deco, and use of at least one stage bottle. SLIM likes to teach it as an Intro to Intro to Cave for folks who have had little doubles experience.

Intro Cave just certifies you to dive in the cave on the main line within NDL. Tech Cave/Full Cave includes deco and stage bottles, as well as teaching you to make jumps and dive circuits.

Trimix is a separate class that comes later, and can be taught in cave or open water, depending on the student and instructor preference.

theskull

SLIM will be happy to correct me if I misquoted him regarding Adv EANx Deco Proc. ;)

[scububa]

Oh just a point, I am starting to give a new class, how to get your fins on with least amount of effort.( inside joke).

SLIM

HEY!!! now...I am following this thread. :D

Interesting point is that even when you get a certain level of proficiency, you can still have a chink in your armor.

Although my psuedonym has been brought up here, I have no place at the table with the others. I am so far on the front end of the learning curve. I do appreciate that they allow me to dive with them and every dive is a learning thing...whether there it is formal for fee or otherwise. I also know that there is much more value with a sincere mentor than the class itself. Opportunity to dive (outside of class), developing relationships with other like minded divers thru association, hanging around, etc., loan of certain equipment as you climb the ladder, and so much more.

There is one DRAWBACK for having a good instructor beyond how serious they take their reputation/name on your certification. When you dive somewhere else, the pressure is on, because the community is small and you will be expected to meet the standard and you immediately sense you are being graded again, not only you, but your instructor, so the pressure is on :cool:

[theskull]

You are much mistaken, 'buba. That you hold yourself accountable for every minor slip in buoyancy and each instance in which you allow a buddy to help you with a tie-off is testament that you do belong in the company in which you have been mentioned. I can assure you that the divers we "allow to dive with us" don't accompany us on a deco dive into the lower tunnel as anchor man (and deco profile leader) of the team.

And it is also something of a credit to our common mentor that we still strive to be just a little bit better every dive.

Please relax a little and enjoy the dives and the company . . . and if you have an opinion on the topic at hand, please give it.

theskull

[skdvr]

Please relax a little and enjoy the dives and the company . . . and if you have an opinion on the topic at hand, please give it.

theskull

Please do give an opinion if you have it. You are obviously MUCH further along in training than I and being that you are newer to the cave thing I am very interested in hearing what you liked or dis-liked about the pregression of training. Is there anything that you wish you had done in a different order than you did? Of has everything worked out pretty good so far?

I like the fact that people as accomplished as folks in here remember where they started and are willing to help other divers out such as myself who are just starting out. To me that is Awesome....

Phil

[DeepDiverBob]

I like the fact that people as accomplished as folks in here remember where they started and are willing to help other divers out such as myself who are just starting out. To me that is Awesome....

Phil

Experience at any level is pointless if youre not willing to share it, in my opinion.

[scububa]

Well, I did try a post that vaporized on me...I'll try again...

I was staying out as it was a 'beginings' question and lots of good expert reponses. Then I decided that maybe offering something from the middle of the pack might be helpful. It was not so long ago that I was asking the same questions.

I started out with an interest in wreck diving and being able to enter them without hurting them (or me). This led me to trying the cavern just to handle a reel. Well, I got pretty interested in it. Also, the same logic, skills transfer and the fact that I had caves, not wrecks in my backyard. I have come to realize that quality diving begats higher quality diving.

I did the deep, AdvEANx, deco procedures in, I guess, parallel with the cavern to cave transition. Again, a matter of what was practically available. Lakes good, caves blown out, etc. This is where I really feel like I started to learn how to do this kind of diving.

The cave intro - basic - tech cave came over a bit of time. I tried to be honest with myself about when to move on and to listen to both the direct and subtle communications from my mentor/instructor. The direct being statements like "No, you should do this first." or "Yes, you are ready to do that procedure." The subtle being things like uncontrollable laughter or the coughing up of fine whiskey when I ask about going on a certain dive.

At this stage, I am not sure how important the sequence is as long as you separate the environments until you are ready to bring them together. (for instance, I didn't take the stages into the cave until I learned to do the cave basics, even though I was diving them in open water) I don't think I would be better or worse if the order was changed. This might be because they weren't separated by that much time. But, more over, I think much of the basics is complemented between them. Tasking, situational awareness, controlling bouyancy and trim, handling spools/reels, lights, planning, etc. are very similar. You can't get very far in either if you don't handle them well. At that point, things begin to reinforce each other.

I will say I have seen first hand how serious an instructor is about meeting standards. I have seen a guy with time, money, travel invested that wasn't ready and given a 'no go' in a very complicated senario. If ever a pass was going to be given, this would have been it and it wasn't given. So, I know for a fact that they take it very serious and hold the line on standards. It is the community it is because of this. They are NOT (edit) going to steer you wrong.

Which formula works for you is more dependent on your variables and the final answer you are looking for. The value of a mentor/instructor at this level is waaaaay more than the cost of the class. Opportunities to dive outside of formal class, introductions to other like minded divers to build relationships with, loaning gear here and there while you build up are just a few that come to mind.

[skdvr]

Well, I did try a post that vaporized on me...I'll try again...

I was staying out as it was a 'beginings' question and lots of good expert reponses. Then I decided that maybe offering something from the middle of the pack might be helpful. It was not so long ago that I was asking the same questions.

I started out with an interest in wreck diving and being able to enter them without hurting them (or me). This led me to trying the cavern just to handle a reel. Well, I got pretty interested in it. Also, the same logic, skills transfer and the fact that I had caves, not wrecks in my backyard. I have come to realize that quality diving begats higher quality diving.

I did the deep, AdvEANx, deco procedures in, I guess, parallel with the cavern to cave transition. Again, a matter of what was practically available. Lakes good, caves blown out, etc. This is where I really feel like I started to learn how to do this kind of diving.

The cave intro - basic - tech cave came over a bit of time. I tried to be honest with myself about when to move on and to listen to both the direct and subtle communications from my mentor/instructor. The direct being statements like "No, you should do this first." or "Yes, you are ready to do that procedure." The subtle being things like uncontrollable laughter or the coughing up of fine whiskey when I ask about going on a certain dive.

At this stage, I am not sure how important the sequence is as long as you separate the environments until you are ready to bring them together. (for instance, I didn't take the stages into the cave until I learned to do the cave basics, even though I was diving them in open water) I don't think I would be better or worse if the order was changed. This might be because they weren't separated by that much time. But, more over, I think much of the basics is complemented between them. Tasking, situational awareness, controlling bouyancy and trim, handling spools/reels, lights, planning, etc. are very similar. You can't get very far in either if you don't handle them well. At that point, things begin to reinforce each other.

I will say I have seen first hand how serious an instructor is about meeting standards. I have seen a guy with time, money, travel invested that wasn't ready and given a 'no go' in a very complicated senario. If ever a pass was going to be given, this would have been it and it wasn't given. So, I know for a fact that they take it very serious and hold the line on standards. It is the community it is because of this. They are (NOT)going to steer you wrong.

Which formula works for you is more dependent on your variables and the final answer you are looking for. The value of a mentor/instructor at this level is waaaaay more than the cost of the class. Opportunities to dive outside of formal class, introductions to other like minded divers to build relationships with, loaning gear here and there while you build up are just a few that come to mind.

Well said. Thanks for taking the time....

Phil

[scububa]

Well said. Thanks for taking the time....

Phil

Phil,
If you can, please go in and edit your #26 post to place the "NOT (edit)" in my copied message. I'd hate for that missed word to get copied forward.

Thanks,
Jim

[DeepDiverBob]

Phil,
If you can, please go in and edit your #26 post to place the "NOT (edit)" in my copied message. I'd hate for that missed word to get copied forward.

Thanks,
Jim

You know, I read that about 5 this morning, but figured it was a type-o, and let it go. That makes a lot more sense now.

[skdvr]

Phil,
If you can, please go in and edit your #26 post to place the "NOT (edit)" in my copied message. I'd hate for that missed word to get copied forward.

Thanks,
Jim

I read over that about 5 times too thinking I must have just missed something....:)

[dive4you82]

I personally always like doing a evaluation dive with new students and prefer to teach them to dive doubles in open water before an overhead enviroment. But I want to caution you not to dive doubles to long before seeking training as you could learn bad habits....

[scububa]

I read over that about 5 times too thinking I must have just missed something....:)

Yeah...you know what happens when you don't put your NOTs in the right place...everything comes unraveled...that's what happens to MY BRAIN at 11:30. Sorry, but at least I made ya look!

[skdvr]

I ran into a guy today out at a local quarry that is a IANTD full cave instructor, and I asked him about the training progression and his thought was to go Cave first and that will easily translate into wreck diving. He said that after intro to cave and several cave dives later I would have a good idea how much I like or dislike cave. At that point I can decide if I want to continue on with cave (if I like it) or move into deep tec.

This guy has not been in a cave in about 2 years he said and he would not teach it right now becuase it has been so long, but that was just his thoughts on it...

Phil