PADI Tec Deep

[Dark Wolf]

I have been working on skills a lot this year, and was told a couple of weeks ago that I had been accepted by my instructor as being ready for the Tec Deep class. Woo Hoo!! :)

I will keep you all updated on how things go. I am slated to start the classroom portion this winter, and do the dives in the spring.

DW

[MgicTwnger]

Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!

[theskull]

DW,

DeepDiverBob and I are helping a small handful of divers ramp up their skills and get their equipment shaped up for the TecDeep class. As part of this, I have been re-reading the course materials and manual--it is a very well formatted course! I'm sure you will enjoy the experience & the challenges.

Have fun and dive safe,
theskull

[MgicTwnger]

DW,

DeepDiverBob and I are helping a small handful of divers ramp up their skills and get their equipment shaped up for the TecDeep class. As part of this, I have been re-reading the course materials and manual--it is a very well formatted course! I'm sure you will enjoy the experience & the challenges.

Have fun and dive safe,
theskull

Bill,

Will you guys be teaching it?

[theskull]

Bill,

Will you guys be teaching it?

LOL! Neither of us are or want to be instructors. We are both pretty decent mentors, though, and will be coaching some divers in the right direction so that when they do take the class they can focus on the core skills and not be needing remedial "how to dive doubles" lessons, or have some awful gear configuration.

theskull

[MgicTwnger]

Sorry, I thought you were.
Speaking of Bob, did you mean "mentor" or "mental"?

[theskull]

Sorry, I thought you were.
Speaking of Bob, did you mean "mentor" or "mental"?

I will be happy to take that as a compliment.
And regarding Bob, I did indeed mean "mentor"! He is quite accomplished.

theskull

[MgicTwnger]

I will be happy to take that as a compliment.
And regarding Bob, I did indeed mean "mentor"! He is quite accomplished.

theskull

It was meant as a compliment
And yes, he is supremely accomplished. He keeps telling me so.

[skdvr]

Congrats DW... You will have to let us know how the course goes. I was hoping to take some tec courses next year but I cannot make up my mind who I want to go with... PADI, TDI, GUE... I just do not know... I will worry about it more as time gets a little closer. I may not do it next year like I had planned since I have Twins on the way in Dec.

theskull was very helpful to me as far as getting me more squared away with my doubles... Thanks....

Phil

[do it easy]

Congrats!! Keep us posted with updates and shout out if you get up this way.

[scububa]

Congrats.

Even though I have only dove a couple of times with theskull, he was also very helpful to me. He stayed around a second day to help me reinforce my skills related to the AdvEANx/Deco Proc. He also was very patient and informative as I went thru 100 email questions about equipment I as aquiring.

Mentor/Instructor/Diver Extrodinare...who cares, eh? He helped make me a better diver. (And SLIM probably needed a break from me, so he helped SLIM too! :-)

[MgicTwnger]

Bill,

Who is running this class. When & where?

[DeepDiverBob]

And yes, he is supremely accomplished. He keeps telling me so.

That is not true at all. I just keep telling you that you are not...lol

[theskull]

Bill,

Who is running this class. When & where?

Our shop, Y-Kiki Divers, is running the class. Right now it is more of an "Intro to Tech Diving Club" than it is a class. The class will most likely commence next Spring.

That gives us the uncrowded Winter diving season to get some practice in once everyone is geared up and we're through with the very crowded Fall teaching season (and no, I'm not an OWSI either, just an Asst. Instructor--I truly appreciate those who take on the Instructor paperwork, responsibilities, and expenses, but that scenario does not appeal to me).

theskull

[theskull]

Congrats DW... You will have to let us know how the course goes. I was hoping to take some tec courses next year but I cannot make up my mind who I want to go with... PADI, TDI, GUE... I just do not know... I will worry about it more as time gets a little closer. I may not do it next year like I had planned since I have Twins on the way in Dec.

theskull was very helpful to me as far as getting me more squared away with my doubles... Thanks....

Phil

Thanks, Phil and others, for the kind words.

Phil--Don't be at all concerned about which letters are on the card you will receive. Choose an instructor who does the dives, often, and with whom you are willing to spend a lot of time and money. Anyway, just like with OW, the real learning starts after you get the card and you start doing the dives with a good buddy or 2.

theskull

[BottomDweller]

I'm not planning to pursue the tech diving route, but I'm curious about what skills you've been working on perfecting prior to taking your course. Buoyancy control would be one, I'm assuming. What other skills need to be rock solid before embarking on the tech path?

[skdvr]

Thanks, Phil and others, for the kind words.

Phil--Don't be at all concerned about which letters are on the card you will receive. Choose an instructor who does the dives, often, and with whom you are willing to spend a lot of time and money. Anyway, just like with OW, the real learning starts after you get the card and you start doing the dives with a good buddy or 2.

theskull

Yeah I am not concerned with the Initials on the card. My only concern with the DSAT program is that since it has not been around for a long time how many of the instructors actually do the type of diving that they teach and not just do it as a teacher. If that makes any sense. My initial thought was to head up to Chicago and hopefully learn from some folks who do the deep tec stuff all the time, but like you said I will pick who I decide to learn with from interviewing the instructor. We will see when the time comes....

Thanks
Phil

[DeepDiverBob]

Yeah I am not concerned with the Initials on the card. My only concern with the DSAT program is that since it has not been around for a long time how many of the instructors actually do the type of diving that they teach and not just do it as a teacher. If that makes any sense. My initial thought was to head up to Chicago and hopefully learn from some folks who do the deep tec stuff all the time, but like you said I will pick who I decide to learn with from interviewing the instructor. We will see when the time comes....

Thanks
Phil

Your concerns are very valid. Thats exactly why I did my training with Ed Pavey at Ozark Dive Company. It cost me my home at my previous dive shop too, because I went outside the shop for my training. Eds shop is 30 miles from Cannonball, and he is tech diving probably 2 or 3 times a week, and has been tech diving for more years that I have been diving in general. Thats also another reason why Ykiki Divers does not offer the class yet, because the people that are going to teach it, want to get more dives and experience under their belt before officially offering the program.

[theskull]

I'm not planning to pursue the tech diving route, but I'm curious about what skills you've been working on perfecting prior to taking your course. Buoyancy control would be one, I'm assuming. What other skills need to be rock solid before embarking on the tech path?

Right, buoyancy control is supreme. Right in line with that is depth/time awareness--the ability to plan to dive at a depth of x ft. for x min. and stick to that plan. Also air pressure awareness, and hopefully a SAC rate of less than 1 cu ft/min.

Buddy/situational awareness
Good navigation skills
Control of trim/body position in water
Very comfortable with clearing/removing mask and swapping regs during air sharing practice

The "diving" part of your diving needs to be comforatable and routine enough that you don't have to think about buoyancy or breathing when it is time to learn to shoot a lift bag or stage a bottle.

theskull

[theskull]

Yeah I am not concerned with the Initials on the card. My only concern with the DSAT program is that since it has not been around for a long time how many of the instructors actually do the type of diving that they teach and not just do it as a teacher. . . .

DDBob's reply covered the main bases.

However, just because DSAT TecDeep has not been around long does not mean that a great many of the instructors teaching it are less than very experienced.

The DSAT format and materials are all top-notch; when you read the list of contributors it reads like a who's who of tech diving. Many highly experienced and competent tech instructors have elected to teach through DSAT for one of a few reasons:
1. The excellence of the materials
2. The well defined sequence of training dives
3. Because they work at a PADI 5-Star facility and are required to teach PADI courses if they are offered.

DDBob's tech instructor teaches the DSAT course (formerly taught through IANTD).
My Trimix instructor teaches the DSAT course (also formerly IANTD).

There is definitely an advantage to using a local instructor--you end up with a handful of like-minded buddies with which to dive and practice.

theskull

[theskull]

I have been working on skills a lot this year, and was told a couple of weeks ago that I had been accepted by my instructor as being ready for the Tec Deep class. Woo Hoo!! :)

I will keep you all updated on how things go. I am slated to start the classroom portion this winter, and do the dives in the spring.

DW

Hey Dark One,

You started a great discussion.
Why do you want a TecDeep cert?
And how did you pick your instructor?

theskull

[BottomDweller]

theskull, you mentioned mask removal and replacement, which leads me to another question. I read that Steve Belinda, captain of one of the Andrea Doria dive boats, gets Doria divers to wear their mask straps under their hoods so their mask can't get knocked completely off. Is this common tech practice? Do any of you do this? Seems like a logical idea.

[theskull]

theskull, you mentioned mask removal and replacement, which leads me to another question. I read that Steve Belinda, captain of one of the Andrea Doria dive boats, gets Doria divers to wear their mask straps under their hoods so their mask can't get knocked completely off. Is this common tech practice? Do any of you do this? Seems like a logical idea.

Yes, mask strap under the hood is very common, the only way to go when diving in strong currents. BTW, it is also very handy because your mask strap is always set for the correct tension no matter which hood you wear or if you aren't using one. And, if you are diving cold deep water but returning to warm shallow water for some of your deco, you can slip the hood off for the last couple stops for comfort.

theskull

[SLIM]

you are diving cold deep water but returning to warm shallow water for some of your deco, you can slip the hood off for the last couple stops for comfort.

theskull


Wonder where you learned that from? I have pics of you having iton the outside of your hood. But then most of the time in NFL you wear a beanie.

Even with a strap under the hood, it can still come off if in strong flow or a buddy is kicking hard enough and you are to close, that can happen at times in low vis water that we have in this area at times.

SLIM

[Dark Wolf]

Thank you all for the responses. I will try to answer everyone.

Mgic Twnger-- Thanks! We are going to have to get together and dive again.

skdvr--Thanks! I agree, theskull is a very helpful person. I got to meet him once last fall at Mermet. I will keep you posted.

do it easy--Thanks! I will keep in touch and we will dive again.

Bottom Dweller--Yes, I have been working a great deal on bouyancy and getting more used to the drysuit. Also working on nav, valve drills, line work, shooting bags, and have done a dive or two with a stage bottle.

theskull--I have been interested in wrecks since before I started diving. Even with shallow wrecks, you have a great deal more bottom time when you can plan a deco dive. The instructor that I went with is a local guy that does a lot of tec diving. I did AOW and Nitrox through him, and watched him do a couple of Tec Deep classes. Very nice guy, and very thorough. Likes to throw things at you that you are not expecting, normally when task loaded. :) We have been working steadily deeper, and getting skills lined out.

Thanks again to all of you, I will keep you posted.

DW

[theskull]

Wonder where you learned that from? . . .
SLIM

Wonder where I learned a lotta stuff from? ;)

. . . and still do!

Thanks.

theskull

[skdvr]

I am not saying anyting bad about DSAT... I have heard good things from several people about their materials. As with most things it comes down to the instructor... The only thing I am not real sure about is their course structure. I could be way off with this but it appears I would get more bang for my buck starting out with TDI Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures over the DSAT Tec Deep one.... I am not trying to start a war about whos courses are better than whos. This is just a question from someone with very limited knowledge of EXACTLY what is tought in each class. From my view it seems that Tec deep 1 is about the same as Advanced Nitrox from TDI and about twice the cost. You can add Deco Procedures to the TDI course and be about the same as the DSAT. Please correct me if I am wrong...

Bob, I do not work for any shop in St Louis. I do however stick pretty close to *****, and I could see them being not to happy with me if I decided to spend a whole bunch of money somewhere else, but I have to choose my training for me. Not to say that after some actual time spent looking into courses and instructors I wouldn't go with their DSAT program anyway, because I may. Espically with 2 babies on the way it may be the best way for me to get training without going out of town.

I am sure that as I progress to a point of actually looking to spend my money and time, you will get quite a few questions from me on this board, and hopefully in person...

Thanks again for the responses from everyone. This has been an interesting thread and hopefully will continue to be.

Have a great weekend.

Phil

[theskull]

I am not saying anyting bad about DSAT... I have heard good things from several people about their materials. As with most things it comes down to the instructor... The only thing I am not real sure about is their course structure. I could be way off with this but it appears I would get more bang for my buck starting out with TDI Advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures over the DSAT Tec Deep one.... I am not trying to start a war about whos courses are better than whos. This is just a question from someone with very limited knowledge of EXACTLY what is tought in each class. From my view it seems that Tec deep 1 is about the same as Advanced Nitrox from TDI and about twice the cost. You can add Deco Procedures to the TDI course and be about the same as the DSAT. Please correct me if I am wrong...

Bob, I do not work for any shop in St Louis. I do however stick pretty close to *****, and I could see them being not to happy with me if I decided to spend a whole bunch of money somewhere else, but I have to choose my training for me. Not to say that after some actual time spent looking into courses and instructors I wouldn't go with their DSAT program anyway, because I may. Espically with 2 babies on the way it may be the best way for me to get training without going out of town.

I am sure that as I progress to a point of actually looking to spend my money and time, you will get quite a few questions from me on this board, and hopefully in person...

Thanks again for the responses from everyone. This has been an interesting thread and hopefully will continue to be.

Have a great weekend.

Phil

Hey Phil,

TDI and DSAT break their courses up differently. If your end goal is deco dives with 2 deco gases, by the time you get that far with either agency you will have done roughly the same skills in roughly the same number of dives. Cost will vary with instructor and shop, and is completely separate from agency considerations. (And in some cases you will spend extra to pay boat charter fees, instructor travel expenses, perhaps even instructor Nitrox fills.)

I will say that the DSAT instructors at ***** are very experienced at doing the dives. You can ask around.

In the mean time, keep cranking out the dives in your doubles as I know you have been doing, so they become at least as familiar to you in the water as your rec gear did. If you run into some of us (the other tech divers around) at a dive site, ask to run some drills with us--we all love to keep practicing our skills and help others with them.

theskull

[skdvr]

Hey Phil,

TDI and DSAT break their courses up differently. If your end goal is deco dives with 2 deco gases, by the time you get that far with either agency you will have done roughly the same skills in roughly the same number of dives. Cost will vary with instructor and shop, and is completely separate from agency considerations. (And in some cases you will spend extra to pay boat charter fees, instructor travel expenses, perhaps even instructor Nitrox fills.)

I will say that the DSAT instructors at ***** are very experienced at doing the dives. You can ask around.

In the mean time, keep cranking out the dives in your doubles as I know you have been doing, so they become at least as familiar to you in the water as your rec gear did. If you run into some of us (the other tech divers around) at a dive site, ask to run some drills with us--we all love to keep practicing our skills and help others with them.

theskull


Thanks for the info and the offer.... I am sure that I will take you up on it....

Phil

[Captain Caveman]

When I was looking into tech, the first thing I too was looking for was a instructor that does the type of diving that I want to do. I checked all around the Chicago area. To my suprise I did not find alot of tech instructors that do this. I did have a instructor from my LDS but he has not been in the water in long time and was twice the $ because Padi tech req. that you have all unnessary certs like rec deep. Ive been diving to 130ft for 4 years. COME ON Padi....

So I lissened to my good Friend Steve (Reefraf) about visiting Greg Such in Two rivers Wis. So I called him up and thats when I knew who my instructor was. It also turned out that he has a assistant instr. Brett Buyers in Chicago area that teaches tech and does the dives I was looking to do.

[Captain Caveman]

Brett Buyers
My mistake of miss spelling. Bret Byers

[DeepDiverBob]

Wonder where I learned a lotta stuff from? ;)

. . . and still do!

Thanks.

theskull

And you have passed it down, because you passed on a lot of what you know down to me. I tried to pass it down to, but Ken just wont listen. :D

[MgicTwnger]

And you have passed it down, because you passed on a lot of what you know down to me. I tried to pass it down to, but Ken just wont listen. :D

Coming straight from Bill: words of wisdom.

Coming through you they pick up a lot of ear wax. :p

[skdvr]

DW - I was just wondering how everything is going with the DSAT Deep Tec? Have you started? Finished? Just curious how things are coming along....

Phil

[Dark Wolf]

Have not started yet. Continuing to work on skills. Looking to do the classroom portion this winter, but it is depending on a couple of personal "challenges" that have come up. I may have to push things back a bit, but I hope not. I guess time will tell.

I have started diving with a stage bottle, so that I can get used to things a bit more. I don't want to have to learn basic skills during the class.

Will keep you all posted.

DW

[skdvr]

Thanks DW..

So are you taking DSAT Tec Diver Level I or are you taking DSAT Tec Deep? If you are taking Deep do you have to start off with Level I? I am a bit confused by some of the reading I have done on DSAT. Some make it sound like you have to take level 1 first, and some make it sound like to you not as long as you have a specific number of dives, deep dives, and nitrox dives. Below are some examples of my confusion. These are quotes from PADI's website

From the DSAT Tec Diver Level I page

The DSAT Tec Diver Level One Course
If you're interested in technical diving, but haven't yet met the prerequisites for the DSAT Tec Deep Diver course, you can consider enrolling in the DSAT Tec Diver Level One course. It is also a subcourse of the full DSAT Tec Deep Diver course.

So here it sounds to me like if you meet more stringent requirements that you do not need to take this portion.

Since it's part of the Tec Deep Diver course, your DSAT Tec Diver Level One course training credits toward the DSAT Tec Deep Diver course.
So what does that mean? If I decided to take this portion first that
the DSAT Deep class is not as long?

Prerequisites
You must be

A PADI Advanced Open Water Diver (or qualifying certification from another organization)
A PADI Enriched Air Diver (or qualifying certification from another organization)
A PADI Deep Diver (or qualifying certification from another organization)
Have a minimum of 50 logged dives, of which at least
10 dives< air enriched be must dives
12 dives must be deeper than 18 metres/60 feet
6 dives must be deeper than 30 metres/100 feet
At least 18 years old

[skdvr]

Now to the DSAT Tec Deep page
Prerequisites
You must:

Be a PADI Advanced Open Water Diver (or qualifying certification from another organization)
Be a PADI Rescue Diver (or qualifying certification from another organization)
Be a PADI Enriched Air Diver (or qualifying certification from another organization)
Be a PADI Deep Diver (or qualifying certification from another organization)
Have a minimum of 100 logged dives, of which
• 20 dives must be enriched air dives
• 25 dives must be deeper than 18 metres/60 feet
• at least 15 dives must be deeper than 30 metres/100 feet
Be at least 18 years old
So to me if I meet the requirements above I do not need to take Level I. That the skills from level I would be taught in the Tec Deep? I am confused because at one of my LDS

From my LDS website
Prerequisites

Be certified as a DSAT Level One Diver (or other qualifying certification)
Be certified as a PADI Advanced Open Water Diver (or other qualifying certification)
Be certified as a PADI Rescue Diver (or other qualifying certification)
Be certified as a PADI Enriched Air Diver (or other qualifying certification)
Be certified as a PADI Deep Diver (or other qualifying certification) OR have a minimum of 20 logged dives deeper than 100 feet
Be certified as a EFR Secondary Care Provider (current) (or other qualifying certification)
Be certified as a DAN / PADI Oxygen First Aid Provider (current) (or other qualifying certification)
Have a minimum of 100 logged dives of which 20 must be enriched air dives, 25 dives must be deeper than 60 feet and at least 15 dives must be deeper than 100 feet.
Carry current diver accident insurance covering use of 100 % Oxygen and depths of at least 165'
Have a current medical examination and approval for diving
So is this just my LDS rules? For what ever reason they think that it is best to do level 1 and then deep no matter what your experience. Truse me I do not in any way shape or form think that I am the most experienced person out there. Just looking for some clarification. As far as the qualifications from the PADI website by the time I am ready to go down the tec path I will have exceded their requirements. I also know that numbers do not mean SH@#, and that just because I would meet some arbitrary numbers does not say anything for my abilities. I could be a great diver or the worst out there that has only survived by shear luck. I have really considered going up to Chicago to take Duane's Into to tech course. Then I would hate to through a bunch of money into DSAT Tec Level I and not get much out of it...

I am curious what others think or know about this.

Thanks
Phil

[scububa]

Now to the DSAT Tec Deep page

So to me if I meet the requirements above I do not need to take Level I. That the skills from level I would be taught in the Tec Deep? I am confused because at one of my LDS

<snip>

I am curious what others think or know about this.

Thanks
Phil

Well, since you ask... ;-)

I think you and theskull covered all that matters back in #15 and 17.

Unlike making a precision part that has to fit exactingly into a system - so you have drawings, you start with the same material and process it the same way...with training, you start with different material (people) that has various levels of experience, skill, etc. Then you apply processes (training) that 'stick' in varying degrees with the variety of material. So, the thing that is important is a coach that is good enough to figure out where you are, what you need to get where you both agree you need to get to and an evaluaton of if you got there or not. Obviously a lot of trust is involved.

Sometimes saying "everyone" must do x before y is a way to maximize the cash flow. Sometimes it is a diplomatic way of saying, "I don't think you are ready to skip the next step." Everyone has to figure out which case they are in...In the first case, you probably never arrive at the trust point, so you move on. In the second, you have someone looking out for you and will appreciate it. When your there..., well, see my signature.

[theskull]

Good answer from 'buba.

A shorter form: Select an instructor now, discuss your experience and goals with the instructor, and start down the road in the recommended direction.

All of the instructors that I know you are considering are good ones. Talk to one or two of them, and if you discover a personality match and a proposed program you can live with, give it a go. If not, we'll suggest a couple more instructors for ya. There is no shortage of good ones in the general Midwest area.

theskull

[skdvr]

Thank you gents....

I apprecaite it....

Phil

[SLIM]

I cant help you about how PADI or your shop does things. That is what they have set out.

I can answer this as a IANTD Technical, Full Tech Cave Instgructer. Since I have not see you dive or know anything about you and your skills. You might think you ahve the knowledge and skills but do you truly have them. I have had several students that have thought the same as you but in the middle of class, they have learned differant/. Granted each instructer is idfferant in how they present things. I give each student a chance to show me what they already know so I have an idea of what to work with and what on the most. Like if you were to take a class from me, first you would just come and dive with me and I would see what you know then we would sit down and I would truly let you know if you were ready or not and if notl, what you need to work on first.

Remember a shop has their way of doing things and with most other agencies not to mention a name have a way to make money for the shop.

SLIM

[skdvr]

I cant help you about how PADI or your shop does things. That is what they have set out.

I can answer this as a IANTD Technical, Full Tech Cave Instgructer. Since I have not see you dive or know anything about you and your skills. You might think you ahve the knowledge and skills but do you truly have them. I have had several students that have thought the same as you but in the middle of class, they have learned differant/. Granted each instructer is idfferant in how they present things. I give each student a chance to show me what they already know so I have an idea of what to work with and what on the most. Like if you were to take a class from me, first you would just come and dive with me and I would see what you know then we would sit down and I would truly let you know if you were ready or not and if notl, what you need to work on first.

Remember a shop has their way of doing things and with most other agencies not to mention a name have a way to make money for the shop.

SLIM

Thanks for the Reply SLIM. If there is one thing I am sure of it is that I have a long way to go. I have only dove with a couple of what I would call Really Good Tec Divers and I notice right away differences in how they dive and how I dive. I am working on it all the time, as I want to get better... Maybe sometime this winter if I have the chace to make it back down to TRL I will check with ya and see if you are up for a dive with me. Otherwise maybe next summer when I am down there for my normal week at the lake, I will try to hook up with ya.

Thanks again, I appreciate the help...

Phil

[Dark Wolf]

I am doing Tec Deep. You all make very good points. My instructor is independant, and I have made quite a few dives with him. As was stated above, I have a long way to go as well. Not in a race, just getting on the road! I would also like to thank you all for the additional info.

DW

[DeepDiverBob]

Thanks for the Reply SLIM. If there is one thing I am sure of it is that I have a long way to go. I have only dove with a couple of what I would call Really Good Tec Divers and I notice right away differences in how they dive and how I dive. I am working on it all the time, as I want to get better... Maybe sometime this winter if I have the chace to make it back down to TRL I will check with ya and see if you are up for a dive with me. Otherwise maybe next summer when I am down there for my normal week at the lake, I will try to hook up with ya.

Thanks again, I appreciate the help...

Phil

You are always more than welcome to come diving with me. I wouldnt say I am, as you say a "Really Good Tech Diver", but I have done my fair share of it. If we can get theskull to come along with us, then you can see a master tech diver at work. I'm still learning from him.

[dive4you82]

Just remember a good instructor will work with you to refine you skills, not just send you home to figure it out on your own.. If you are having problems seek out a local instructor and get help.. And yes they will charge you for their time. A transfer of knowledge should have value$ Otherwise it is only worth what you paid for it.