Cave Training

[Atlaua]

So I'm the opposite of TheSkull next year. This year has been all about warm blue water. 2007, however, will leve me with no time to travel, save one very important (non diving) trip.

So, I'm thinking it might finally be time to take the full cave plunge. Equipment will be a bit of an issue, but I think I can work that out (with help). My big question is who???

I always wanted to do my cave training with a certain agency following their "fundimental" course. But well, between getting screwed trying to plan a vacation around said course and never seeming to be free for a "nearby" (a.k.a. 5 hours+) course, I'm giving up on that plan.

Considering I cannot travel to places with karst systems that are warmer and more accessable, who should I contact to get the best bang for the buck in the more local Missouri caves?

James

[scububa]

Well, there is always our SLIM. I am hoping to get my training started as soon as possible. We had it planned for the fall, but weather disrupted our plans. Maybe we can gang up on him :-)

Jim

[scububa]

Oh, and you probably already know this from the board, he is IANTD.

[Atlaua]

Oh, and you probably already know this from the board, he is IANTD.


I'm ashamed to admit that life has kept me too busy to even keep up with this board as I should :(. But yea, I figured that SLIM would be in the running....

Ganging up sounds like a great idea, even if it doesn't make the price better it should make the company better :).

James

Ok rereading that it sounds like I'm saying that SLIM's company might leave somthing to be desired. That's not what I meant, while I've never met him, I'm sure from the advice of others that SLIM is a fun guy, I meant that it would be better to take a class with another dedicated person than a random who knows what...

[DeepDiverBob]

I would also recommend Slim. Although I havent taken any classes with him, i have dove with him a few times, and a few of the people he has trained, and they are all well trained divers that I trust very much every time we enter a cave system.

[steve2281]

Considering I cannot travel to places with karst systems that are warmer and more accessable, who should I contact to get the best bang for the buck in the more local Missouri caves?

James

The subject of midwest cave instructors was recently discussed over on the yahoo cave divers list. It looks like the choices for MO/midwest cave instruction include:

Slim (of course)

Shannon Wallace

Ron Shirley

Ed Pavey at Ozark Dive Center in Poplar Bluff offers cave training, though Ed is not the instructor, and it's not clear exactly who in doing the instruction.

While not mentioned in the yahoo thread: Larry Babcock in Evansville IN at Aquatech Dive Center used to offer cave instruction. I don't know if he is still active.

I have not taken classes with any of these instructors, and therefore cannot make a recommendation relating to personal experience. I have dived with Slim; he is an excellent cave diver and fun to be around.

I have not checked on prices with the midwest instructors. However, research for my own cave training (in FL) revealed that most instructors charge about the same amount with some of the big name, full-time instructors costing a little more. I would not recommend using "bang for buck" as a determining factor when choosing an instructor at this level of training.

Hope this helps,

[DeepDiverBob]

Ed Pavey at Ozark Dive Center in Poplar Bluff offers cave training, though Ed is not the instructor, and it's not clear exactly who in doing the instruction.



I am pretty sure that is Slim.

[scububa]

I'm ashamed to admit that life has kept me too busy to even keep up with this board as I should :(. But yea, I figured that SLIM would be in the running....

Ganging up sounds like a great idea, even if it doesn't make the price better it should make the company better :).

James

Ok rereading that it sounds like I'm saying that SLIM's company might leave somthing to be desired. That's not what I meant, while I've never met him, I'm sure from the advice of others that SLIM is a fun guy, I meant that it would be better to take a class with another dedicated person than a random who knows what...

Actually, I kind of liked the way it sounded at first :-D That makes it sound like I am better company than SOMEBODY ! But, SLIM is excellent to be around. He IS a great guy but when you are training and it calls for it, he can be as brutal as the situation dictates. And, he does expect you to be thinking as close to his level as you can. While I haven't yet done that, I fell I get a little closer every dive.

I have no idea how he compares $-wise to anyone else. I do know that I don't feel like I have wasted a $ yet.

I agree that diving less than random is a good idea. Maybe we can get together and get wet sometime soon.

Jim "the other James"

[theskull]

Hey James,

I can answer a couple of the questions above.

SLIM is an excellent cave instructor, and he is the one teaching for Ozark shop as well. He teaches through Full Cave (Tech Cave) through IANTD and is also a NSS-CDS instructor for Basic Cave. The big advantage of the IANTD cert is that it not only qualifies you for full cave, but also for deco, stage diving, and mixed gases up to 100% O2. He is also probably the least expensive since it is local diving, he would be doing it anyway, and he is working on building a reputation as a cave instructor.

At this time Ron Shirley is not taking any cave students, although he still teaches tech classes through Full Trimix.

Shannon Wallace is a fine instructor, and he is the one you want if you would -like- to be trained to dive the "this is the only acceptable way to dive" way.

Local cave training is convenient, cost effective, and teaches you to cave dive in some of the most difficult conditions. I highly recommend it to Midwest divers. You do have to be flexible with your schedule and patient, though, as a good hard rain can wreck the local caves for weeks at a time. Some of your classes will have a scheduled date, which will be subject to cancellation the night before depending on how the local cave conditions look to a couple of our local informants.

theskull

[Atlaua]

Shannon Wallace is a fine instructor, and he is the one you want if you would -like- to be trained to dive the "this is the only acceptable way to dive" way.

I'm not tied in to DIR (there I said the word). It's not really practical around here. That whole "only dive with DIR divers" attitude would make it awfully lonely diving around here :).

What I woudn't want is an instructor who forced me to configure equipment (i.e. hoses) in a manor that was significantly different than the DIR system.

SLIM's been away for nearly a week so I assume he's off somewhere for the Holidays. I won't be makeing any decisions anytime soon (I've got to figure a way to put a rig together on a buget), but I'm interested in hereing from him.

So what I'm I missing from an equipment standpoint?

I'll need to buy another first stage at a minimum if I canablize one of my current regs or two new regs if I don't.
I'd need another bp and wing.
A new set of hoses.
I have a nice matched set of 95's but that would probably be more than I want to deal with with my back so I'll probably need two more tanks, plus bands/valves/manifold.

What else is missing? Is a can light required or can I get away with my light cannon for now?

James

[DeepDiverBob]

Actually, Slim is down in Florida with Bill, so I am sure Bill can relay anything on to him while they are down there.

It seems like the 95s is the way most people are going with doubles. I like my 108s because they are heavier, and being a big guy, i need to the extra weight to help get me down without stuffing a lot of weight into pockets and my backplate.

I dont recall is a light cannister is required for training, but I would highly recommend it. Me and Mike tried getting through our cave class using something else, and by day 2, we was at Cave Excursions buying our current light cannister. It will make it a lot easier when working the reels, doing lights out and especially the pull and glide technique. I know your shop justrecently became a dealer for Halcyon, and I have heard they have pretty good lights. (That will get you going down the right path for DIR,too, if you decide to go that route.)

I hope you find some of this useful.

[Mike M]

Atlaua,

Your instructor will tell you what he sees as the right equipment & configurations but it will consist of
1) Min 72cu.ft.tanks
2) power fins ( no split fins) with straps taped or springs
3)Two single hose regs, one with 5' hose (7' strongly recommended) & hose inflator if you have a dry suit, other reg will need hose with necklace,BC inflator hose & SPG ( you will also need a brass snap to secure long hose)
4)One primary reel & one safety reel
5) Three line arrows & one cookie
6)Three lights ( Primary has to have a burn time & illumination sufficient for the length of the dives which are going to be long) backups have to be twist on types ( your going to have to be able to clip your light on a "D" ring during drills, so any thing other than a canister light is going to screw with your trim in the water)

Only thing I can tell you about DIR is you will be buying all new gear.

Hope this helps.

Mike M

[Atlaua]

I dont recall is a light cannister is required for training, but I would highly recommend it. Me and Mike tried getting through our cave class using something else, and by day 2, we was at Cave Excursions buying our current light cannister. It will make it a lot easier when working the reels, doing lights out and especially the pull and glide technique. I know your shop justrecently became a dealer for Halcyon, and I have heard they have pretty good lights. (That will get you going down the right path for DIR,too, if you decide to go that route.)

Have you priced Halcyon lights? My problem is that when I buy things I don't like to settle. If I go with a can I'll get what I want not what I can afford :). If I settle it will just cost me more in the long run as I'll eventually have to replace it. I'm trying to avoid a second mortgage :).

[quote=Mike M;12369]
Your instructor will tell you what he sees as the right equipment & configurations but it will consist of

Yea, I won't be buying anything until after I have picked out and talked to an instructor. I was just making sure there weren't any major expenditures I'm missing.


1) Min 72cu.ft.tanks


Yea, I'll probably pair the 95's to save money, but with a herniated disk I'm tempted to pick up a couple of AL80's.


2) power fins ( no split fins) with straps taped or springs


I use turtles. I hate them becaue they are too soft but my XL jet's won't fit over my rock boots.


3)Two single hose regs, one with 5' hose (7' strongly recommended) & hose inflator if you have a dry suit, other reg will need hose with necklace,BC inflator hose & SPG ( you will also need a brass snap to secure long hose)


You couldn't pay me to use a 5' hose, too short. I dive a hog rig for my single tank so I'm famaliar with it. And yes, my 7' has an SS clip.


4)One primary reel & one safety reel


Yep, forgot about the real. I should be ok there. I've got a wreck reel which would become a cave reel simply by replacing the line with a longer/thinner version, a safety reel, an several spools.


5) Three line arrows & one cookie


Another one I forgot but cheap enough.


6)Three lights ( Primary has to have a burn time & illumination sufficient for the length of the dives which are going to be long) backups have to be twist on types ( your going to have to be able to clip your light on a "D" ring during drills, so any thing other than a canister light is going to screw with your trim in the water)


Yea, I'll have to spend some money here. I currently use an SL4 as a backup becaue I like the spot size and power. It clips off nice and snug but it's not twist on.


Only thing I can tell you about DIR is you will be buying all new gear.


Somewhere on here is a post about my diving philosophy but it's definatly not DIR. I think GUE offers some excellent training and some really good ideas, but I pick and choose the ones I like...something die hard DIR divers consider to be a sin. My only major requirement is that I will breath the long hose as a primary. I've been doing it that way for years and have no desire to change :).


Hope this helps.



Yea, you reminded me of a couple more expenditures...

[steve2281]

Yea, I'll probably pair the 95's to save money, but with a herniated disk I'm tempted to pick up a couple of AL80's.



With your bad back, you might consider LP85's. They weight only 2lbs more than Al80's, plus you'll take 10-12 lbs off your weight belt (or get rid of the weight belt altogether). I'm packing less TOTAL weight with my steel tanks than I did with dbl 80's.

Plus, the 85's will hold a ton of air (240 cu') with a good over-fill on them. IMHO 85's are the best all-round doubles you can get. For cave diving only, I would have gone with 95 or 104's, but I wouldn't want to climb a boat ladder on a windy day on Lake Michigan with them on my back.

Also, 85's are $100 or more cheaper than many steel tanks. At $200 each retail they aren't much more than Al80's.

[DeepDiverBob]

but I wouldn't want to climb a boat ladder on a windy day on Lake Michigan with them on my back.


That happened to me last year, and that was one HELL of a storm too. I have my double 108s on my back. The way the weather was going, I dont didnt care if I had double H-tanks on my back, my butt was getting up that ladder.

[Mike M]

Atlaua,

Glad to help, as you know I'm new to this forum & not sure of what training you've had before, didn't know if you were going from OW straight through to full cave or what so I figured I might be preaching to the choir on some things but thought I'd say it any way.
I did put a PS at the bottom for a really good deal on regs from Salvo ( I'm going to get a couple for stage bottles), I know people who use them & say they're great.
It's differently expensive to change to Cave diving but, it opens up soooo! many windows (karst to be exact) & it's so much more fulfilling with all the planning, & calculating ( hell we spend days driving & searching for leads to new systems, not to mention hours on the computer going over topo maps of anything that might resemble a karst window).
But any way if I can help at all, just let me know.

Good Luck'
Mike M

[Atlaua]

With your bad back, you might consider LP85's. They weight only 2lbs more than Al80's, plus you'll take 10-12 lbs off your weight belt (or get rid of the weight belt altogether). I'm packing less TOTAL weight with my steel tanks than I did with dbl 80's.

Believe me I love the idea of using the 95's but the issue is the weight on land :). If I had a 4wd pickup I wouldn't even be second guessing ;).


Also, 85's are $100 or more cheaper than many steel tanks. At $200 each retail they aren't much more than Al80's.

I'll probably use the 95's. I hate to give them up for single tank since I can use a single 95 for a day of two OW classes but those two LP85's would get me 1/4 the way to the light bob is trying to talk me into :).

[Mike M]

What about a side mount rig, you carry one tank at a time to the water & gear up there ?

Mike M