Doubles anyone?

[murph]

I'm AOW, and VERY interested in double tanks. I've tried to research doubles, but can't get very clear answers anywhere. So... Tell me what a guy needs to know! Is there a class for it? Do I just buy equipment and try it out? Tank sizes? 80's? Bigger? 130's? Alum or steel? New BC? I have an Avid, and the manu says it can be modified for doubles, but how? Or is a new BC in order? Wings? Used stuff or all new?

[DeepDiverBob]

A lot of the questions you will find to be personal preference. I will give you my opinion.

I prefer to have one standard rig for doubles, and another for single tanks. I dont like the hassle of switching back and forth between the two.

I would highly recommend steel tanks. Double AL80s would get very bouyant towarsds the end of a dive. ST95s seem to be pretty popular. I personally dive St108s. If you are going to get into technical diving, you will learn about gas matching, and it makes it a lot easier to have around the same size set as your buddies. There really is no class for doubles, but like you are doing here and asking around is a good start. There is a lot of us here that dives doubles, and we dive through the winter. If you want to join us, and check out what we have and ask questions, I dont think any of us will have any problems giving you our opinions.

Hope this has been a little helpful for you anyway.


Sidenote - Unless you plan on going DIR, then there is only one way, and the rest of us are walking corpses anyway, but thats another story for another day.

[steve2281]

You'll probably get several replys on this one, but I'll get you started.

Most everyone will agree not to use a BC. A backplate and wing designed for double tanks is the only way to go.

You don't need a class, but a good mentor is certainly helpful. Make your first few dives shallow and simple.

Steel tanks are best for cold water diving, however I used dbl AL 80's for about a year before getting steel tanks. If you already have the AL tanks, they work good for getting some experience and saving a few $$. Choose tanks depending on what type of diving you'll be doing. good luck

[murph]

I'd love to meet up with you guys on a dive somewhere and learn about your rigs, brands, etc. When I dive cold, I seem to suck the bottom out of my al80. :( I'm very interested in doubles. I've talked to the local dive shop about advantages/disadvantages of steel over alum. They seem to really only deal with alum.

[murph]

Where's the best place to buy a rig for doubles? Name brands? What lift capacities are most common?

[reefraff]

Murph - how about a little information about yourself? How long have you been diving, what classes have you already taken, what kind of diving do you like, what kind of diving have you done, where do you usually dive, etc. It's hard to give appropriate advice to a cypher...

Diving doubles isn't all that hard. Once you have the basic skills mastered it's mostly a matter of adjusting to the increased mass and the change in your center of gravity. At first, you will look and feel like a drunken turtle but it gets better with time. Don't be in a rush, however.

Doubles is the solution to not enough gas and the need for redundant gas supplies. They really aren't the solution to the air-hog syndrome common with new divers - too much task loading. If your SAC/RMV rate is above 1.0, you need to work on that problem first. If you don't know what your SAC/RMV rate is, you need to stick with singles for awhile.

I don't know if the Avid can be adapted to diving with doubles but it definitely wasn't designed for the task. The Avid doesn't have a lot of lift (I don't know which cell you have) which might make them unsuitable for steel doubles. Additionally, larger cylinders might not fit and, as with all softpacks, the wobble problem is going to give you fits. Better to start anew and get a backplate and suitable wing.

There aren't a lot of criteria for a backplate. It needs to have a lot of holes and it needs to be smoothly finished. It needs to be of an appropriate weight for your diving and it needs to be bent for comfort as well as function. Beyond that, price counts for something, too.

Wings, on the other side of the coin, are a hot topic. There are a number of design criteria that people argue over, as well as materials, assembly, reliability, dimensions, lift capacity, etc. This is a topic that has been hashed out a million times, without definitive results, so I'd suggest any time you can devote to searching and reading will be well spent.

This stuff can be discussed on the internet but there is no replacement for spending time, face-to-face, with someone who can help you learn - there are just too many variables at play for the web. Find a local shop and some local divers who are doing the dives and swap beer for knowledge.

[murph]

I've only been diving for a couple of months now. I'm AOW + dry suit. I usually dive at Pennyroyal (quarry), but I have dove in FL, HI, and local lakes. In warmer water 65+ degrees, my breathing is "normal" I guess, or equal to my buddy's air at the end of the dive. Usually 1200-1500 psi after a 45 min 60' or less dive, using an al80. The last dive was 91' @ 43 deg. I was down to 500 psi at the end.

[scububa]

Well, I wrote more than I probably should have in reply to this, but the scuba gods deleted it, so I guess I was over stepping my boundries. :-)

Mainly, I don't have enough experience to offer any specific advice. My point in replying was that I am not that much further down the line than you are and so have been thru things like this recently. You will find a lot of great experience and advice here. Usually pretty level and straight.

Sometimes for me the reason for the answers not seeming clear is that there are lots of 'right' answers. But, narrowing down the ones that are valid for you are highly dependent on the individual. Physique, diving environment, experience level and diving goals will be different.

For the type of diving you seem to be heading toward, you will get a lot of concurrance on going to a BP/W. I dove with a back inflate BCD for my first three years with single steel LP85 for the last two. It was all very necessary for me. After Cavern, I moved to a BP/W, still with single LP85 and just recently started diving with doubles.

I am working with an instructor (SLIM, here on the board) and that gives me the benefit of getting to try more than one configuration before buying my first set. My move comes at the 4-year mark along with doing my AdvEANx, Deep Diving training. My first three years I worked on getting comfortable with my setup and getting to the point of being a decent breather. Now, when I do training dives and work on new skills and tasks, I see my RMV go up.

Basically, I have found that it is best for me to be able to answer the question of what is right for me, myself. Now I get there by reading, asking, studying, training and practicing...but, at the end, I need to be comfortable that I understand my answer. If I don't, I go back and get more info until I can. So, ask away, there is great knowledge here (at least from the others, not me so much ;-)

Dive Rite, Halcyon, Oxycheq are all wings that come to mind. OMS is another, Golem...well, those are places to start...not meant to be exhaustive...be in a hurry to get to information, but don't be in a hurry to do anything with it until you are comfortable you understand it for your use.

Well, I better stop before the scuba gods censor me again.

And, my condolences on your catching the 'disease' ;-)

Jim

[Captain Caveman]

Doubles, Ive been diving for 4 years and now im just getting ready for doubles. Ive been diving for non-stop all year averaging 5-10 dives a month if I can in the Lake, and in the quarry if I can not get out on the lake. Right before I got sick this year Reefraf let me use his doubles lp104, Its nothing like you think its going to be. You are going to learn all over agin And you have been diving for only a short time with little bottom time. I would spend the money on getting more bottom time than gear right now. hit the lakes hard and get pratice. This is what I was told to do and thank god I lissend because my diving im told has improved 100 times.


Drunkin turtle dance man I had to look good eh Steve?

[SLIM]

To truly find the right size that will fit you is hard to do unless you ahve several to try, 85, 95, 108, ect HP or LP tanks are not the issue as much as the size that fits you that you trim out properly. The brand of BP/W is not as important as what fits you and trims you out the best. Wishing to switch over I know of many that have just gone and odne it and thought that the bigger tanks are beter but then you have to push more through the water and are heavyr out of the water and end upwith more work. Bigger is not always best, many get the big tanks for more air since they do not work on the comfort level to keep their SAC at a good one. Get with ann instructor and or a mentor that has many years of the kind of diving you are after in the future and stick with them. My advice is see about getting into some classes that will start in the tecnical field.

Go from shop to shop or buddy to buddy and try before you bye. I dive 95's for many many years. if you could make it to my area I couldl et you try a set of 85's or 95's and if I have them here my 108's.

Get some water time with someone that can tell you why and a reason for the why not just because this is the way.

SLIM

[sobfrogg]

I have to agree w/ the earlier posts.
Get some bottom time in. I dove for 7 years before going to doubs. In that time I was able to work on my basic skills, breathing, and getting my over comfort level in the water to a level I am happy with. I now have several sets of doubs. I use my NAL80's at the quarry and the 108's in the lake. I like the larger tanks for the redundant air supply

Yes some Avid bc's will take doubs, but as some one pointed out earlier that having a rig for singles and one for doubs is nice. Switching your gear from one to the other is a pain in the ***. It also puts more wear and tear on you gear.
Just my .02

Dive Safe
Sobfrogg

[theskull]

A slightly different approach to answering your question.

Diving doubles is not cool, macho, or fun. It is alot of work and requires a great deal of lifting; if you don't have strong legs and back now, you will either develop them or ask alot of people for alot of help with your gear.

Doubles are required for some pursuits, such as cave, tech deep, and deco diving. Wait until your need for the doubles drives you to acquire them.

Until then, do a lot of diving with your current gear. Have a great deal of fun, become skilled at your buoyancy control and general awareness in the water, and learn to relax while having fun so that your SAC rate improves. By all means, buy a larger single tank--a LP 95 or 108, or a HP 119 or 130. Better yet, buy 2 of them so that you might later double them up if your diving takes you in a direction that requires doubles.

I dive my doubles most of the time--because I'm often diving caves or deep, or staying in practice for doing these dives. But I really enjoy my occasional single tank dives because the gear is so light and easy to handle.

Still, come diving with us some time and we'll be happy to spend hours going over our gear, answering questions, and throwing you in the water with our stuff on so you can try it out for your own self.

theskull